Intolerance

You're so pessimistic Yogi, there are plenty of non-selfish people around just have to look for them a bit harder.

I don't wanna be dismal but i'm being realistic. There are good people but there aren't as many good people as bad people .

Sigh, you're right, I think. But there are definately more non selfish people around me now than there was before, I'm quite content now besides you have to have a certain degree of selfishness, even the nice people because you'd be too soft else and that aint no good!

I this world we live in it is unfortunate the the "good" people get taken advantage of by the people that are selfish and inconsiderate. Trust me, i want to have more faith in humanity but the truth is if you tell someone that they could steal 1 million dollars from somebody else and there's a guaranteed chance that no one would know or find out, more than likely they'd do it.

Not all the good get taken advantage of.

But they are definitely more susceptible to getting abused. Us not having as much trust doesn't leave the person who isdistrustful at fault but the reason why that person cannot trust which is the presence of people that cannot be trusted such as the liars, cheaters, and thieves. Being too sympathetic and tolerable leaves you giving others a false impression of what can be tolerated and what shouldn't be tolerated.

What I have learned Yogi is to spot the ones that are not genuine or take advantage and not allow it whilst not becoming cynical so people who genuinley need my help dont get pushed aside, I can spot an abuser a mile off.

It's very hard to spot an abuser because those who do try and take advantage of you put on a disguise to fool you and gain your trust, and most are surprisingly good at faking. I agree, those who genuinely deserve or need help or kindness should get it, but you have to be very careful.

And if someone steals clothing and food for his poor family, he's intolerant isn't he? One who does lie to save innocent lives is intolerant? - I think there are exceptions.

Robin Hood was good or bad?

There are no exceptions. I understand the reason but as harsh as this may seem that person as no right to take from someone else under no circumstances. Lying can sometimes be for the better but that "better" isn't the right way to get there. Achieving what you need to through honesty is the right way to go about bettering you or others.

Yogi, yes it is very hard, I've become an expert though in spotting them, after going round the block a few times, I now have surrounded myself with like minded people and am begining to believe that they are not so far and few between. The Jester, the only time it is ok/justified to lie and steal is when it's for survival so it's ok for the man to steal to provide for his family but only if he has no other choice, well it's not ok, what I mean is he is not a bad person as is someone who steals for greed for instance.

So you'd send to death thousands of others for the sake of being non-intolerant? Ah yes, you do not have to lie, you can give misinformation or you do not have to talk.
I have too many (indirect) bad experiences with life, and with all honesty and goodness a person has, if in necessity, lying, stealing and whatever for me it's justified - thus I do not consider it an evil act.
If everyone was "better" or more good, nobody would need for stealing, for if in need somebody would come and help them. And the good ones cannot help everyone.

But to be honest that's when the breakdown occurs. We then come to the argument of when what is justified, and who is justified to steal from who. If man steals from man for survival, the other steals from someone else for survival, ect.

Edit: And Jester, i have no problem with people not getting involved and staying neutral when it comes to truth but lying is not acceptable. We need honesty because without honesty we would be living in a false world.

If a man steals from another man who is so wealthy that he wont even notice it's gone, infact that's why the poor mans child starves in the first place, because others have too much. Lying is only good as a function when it does good such as survival and avoiding hurting another's feelings.

A man who is truly and always good and honest cannot not endure in society of profiteers.

I'm beginning to think that myself but I think there has to be a way.

That's the problem though, it really is. That's where society will break down. It isn't right to steal from anyone even if they are so wealthy that they wouldn't notice. If that person is giving he will help you which makes him a good person, if not then he is a bad person. You on the other hand, could be a good person if you do not steal but if you do, you are a bad person. The wealthy man could notice and then he thinks he has every right to go and steal from someone else. Just because his wealth is in abundance didn't mean he didn't work for and earn his money. Then you in essence are stealing from a hardworking and honest man, which could be you one day... Do onto others as you would want them to do onto you.


True, that's the problem with society not with a particular person who is trying to be good. Like i said before, i am not disagreeing with you. I want to have more faith in humanity but those who are far too sympathetic towards intolerable people, will get abused.

Yogi, why did the man have to steal in the first place?

Thank you Yogi for the thread as I think it is a great subject that must be discussed it we are to understand the philosophy of "why" these words, "lie, steal and cheat" even exist.



I have a hard time hearing the words in that genre of "music", so I am posting the lyrics:

"I don't want to be hostile
And I don't want to be dismal
But I don't want to rot in
An apathetic existance

See, I want to believe you
And I wanted to trust you
And I want to have faith to
Put away the dagger

But you lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
And yet I tolerate you

You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
And yet I tolerate you

Veil of virtue hung to hide your method
While I smiling and laughing and dance
And sing and praise your glory
Shroud of virtue hung to mask your stigma
As I smile and laugh and dance
And sing your glory
While you

Lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
How can I tolerate you?

You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
How can I tolerate?

Our guilt, our blame
I've been far too sympathetic
Our blood, our fault
I've been far too sympathetic

I am not innocent
You are not innocent
No one is innocent

You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal

You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal

You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
(crescendo)
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal
You lie, cheat and steal

I will no longer tolerate you
Even if I must go down beside you
I must go down beside you
No one is innocent"



First, the lyrics are not indicating who "you" represents so I am going to assume the "you" represents "society" at large, though in the mind of the writer, it could very well be anything, making it highly ambiguous and negative in it's over all concept and message the writer is trying to establish. (Why I emphasized the word) If you truly think about it, without being more definitive as to who "you" represents, only serves to promote a paranoia in general, as Caroline mentioned there are those who do not lie, steal and cheat.

Having said that, I think we must explore why "you" does such things as lie, steal and cheat in a broad sense for they are truly not "virtuous or tolerable" as the lyrics state and can be hidden behind such a word as virtue; of which, that in and of itself, has many definitions as I bring those to the fore:


--Moral excellence and righteousness; goodness.

--An example or kind of moral excellence: the virtue of patience. Chastity, especially in a woman.

--A particularly efficacious, good, or beneficial quality; advantage: a plan with the virtue of being practical.

--Effective force or power: believed in the virtue of prayer. virtues Christianity. The fifth of the nine orders of angels in medieval angelology.

--Obsolete. Manly courage; valor.

Perhaps you can identify the one you think the writer is referring to, IYO .



Agreed.



Thanks of the parenthetical acknowledgment. Yogi, I think you make a critical statement as I believe that very society who created those laws has no idea of what truth and virtue are all about and do hide behind "their definitions" to protect their ignorance. It is that "high and mighty" stature of that society and all it extols that is the impetus for such lying, stealing and cheating in the first place. Call it an "entrapment".



Bingo! Does this very society not do that very thing as they judge what others do protected by those laws they created that "tell" us what to do, yet show no example of what they do themselves as they alone prosper at what others sacrifice that justifies the inequity of their status that forces others to steal, lie and cheat for they have a difficult time adhering to those very laws that forbid such dire straits.



IMO, Yogi, they are not qualities, but consequences this reality and it's "status quo" maintenance and all it's structure, that created the inequity/iniquity; and that is what is "intolerable"!



I am assuming you are referring to the GOLDEN RULE which states, "Treat/do unto other as you would have them treat/do unto you". (Treat others as you would like to be treated) The thing is Yogi, there are so many people who are clueless as to 'how' to treat other people. Talk about a word with many various definitions:

TREAT:

-- To act or behave in a specified manner toward.

--To regard and handle in a certain way. Often used with as: treated the matter as a joke.

--To deal with in writing or speech; discuss: a book that treats all aspects of health care.

--To deal with or represent artistically in a specified manner or style: treats the subject poetically.

--To "provide" with food, entertainment, or gifts at one's own expense: treated her sister to the theater.

--To "give" (someone or oneself) something pleasurable: treated herself to a day in the country.

--To subject to a process, action, or change, especially to a chemical or physical process or application.

--To give medical aid to (someone): treated many patients in the emergency room.

--To give medical aid to counteract (a disease or condition): treated malaria with quinine.

See what I mean. The "golden rule" can have many varied definitions and one that is the most popular and that is so very evident in this mixed up world is; "the one with the gold, makes all the rules" giving a hell of a lot of validity to those comments above regarding 'this society' and the role it plays in creating these "intolerant" consequence.

Now which one of the above definitions, IYO would you consider the most appropriate as to what "treat" means that would give the golden rule a better meaning? I most definitely have mine though I would have to alter a couple of the words in even that definition.



ABSOLUTELY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



ONLY, if that kindness is not genuine. It MUST be "unrequited" and of a giving nature and I promise, if it IS, you it will not be taken advantage of, I swear it!



Please forgive me Yogi, but I hold heartedly DISAGREE. It does seem that way but it is so very far from the truth it isn't even funny. Just the statement alone indicates one's "intolerant nature" of those who surround them. Not good, and IMO as they only tolerate themselves (ego personified) and you do not strike me as such a sort, in all sincerity.

In all I think TOOL has it very much confused as to what intolerance means and it uses "cheating, stealing and lying" as a means to sell it's version of which, as I said gives no clear definitive understanding to who "you" is.

As always thanks for allowing me to respond. :bigsmile:

William