Institutions imposing a certain truth upon the masses

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IMO there are three major instituions: Educational, Religious, and Political institutions are designed and formed to make us believe a certain truth. These institutions make us think a certain way. The positive: they give us organization, comfort, and stability. The negative: they restrict and limit us physically and mentally, they are essentially trying to turn us into conformists, and they impose false truths upon us.

All of these institutions are essentially set up to keep order and give us a purpose in life. Honestly, we don't know where we're going and we need some sort of comforting guide whether it be to succeed in the educational institutions, abide by the political society's standards and laws and be a "good citizen", or follow every word of "god" so that we may ascend to "heaven". Basically we need a purpose to life and it is very convenient to easily adapt to any of these institution's standards and way of life.

There is no certain truth besides reality, once we can realize that, we won't have the problem of needing certain truths to believe and rely on.

Truth being, without these guiding foundations, there probably would be chaos and mayhem. But this is a fundamental problem in humankind, letting us float and drift in this "chaotic" world and life of ours only can lead to problems. The truth is, without order and leadership, we cannot co-exist peacefully. What everything comes down to is a difference in opinion and perspective, we always need to see a "right" perspective to follow and live our lives by.

All this being said, i still believe that all these institutions are incredibly restricting, to and unhealthy point. We cannot live our lives to the fullest with all these limitations yet without them, things go downhill. Even though many limitations are physical, society creates a mental need to conform to standards. This again constricts us and has us living a very unpleasant and fake life.

Any thoughts?

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@Yogi DMT,

I might take exception to including education and its institutions, at least in the borders of Western civilisation, as one which "keeps order and gives us a purpose in life." Education I suggest, does just the opposite from keeping order, for by providing the tools necessary for critical or skeptical thought, it allows us to challenge the predefined order and purpose in life. Indeed, isn't it the uneducated who, in their dull acceptance of both political and religious dogma, provide the means both use to keep order?

If there be no other Truth except "reality," and everything else is alleged to be "false truths," is it not through education that we learn "reality" and how to determine "false truths" from "true truths"?

If you want to see things go downhill, then tell people to avoid at all costs any sort of learning or education.

1 Reply

@Yogi DMT,

Yogi DMT;85779 wrote:

All this being said, i still believe that all these institutions are incredibly restricting, to and unhealthy point. We cannot live our lives to the fullest with all these limitations yet without them, things go downhill. Even though many limitations are physical, society creates a mental need to conform to standards. This again constricts us and has us living a very unpleasant and fake life.

Any thoughts?

Only to this section. I agree that all systems are limited. To obtain one's own will, despite the will of others, without denying them their own, is what I would call a virtuous act by any measure.

Many believe that systems are limited only those without power. This is no so. "If having power makes you right, then does being powerless make you wrong?" The reality of our perception is limited by all sorts of things. Someone born to a ruling family of a monarchy and dictatorship belongs to that sybol of authority and power. It is unlikely that they will ever come to terms with those whom are kicked to the wayside as 'expendible'.

What about those who are unable to join a system? How might they express their objections to anything? Inversely, what about those who are forced into a system? "What's fair?" becomes a rhetorical question, in the light that the answer in differing forms and directions has already been chosen by both the person asking and the person who has heard it.

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@Yogi DMT,

Yogi DMT;85779 wrote:

IMO there are three major instituions: Educational, Religious, and Political institutions are designed and formed to make us believe a certain truth.

Any thoughts?

Hi there Yogi DMT,

Yes, I would agree that humans have formed groups/institutions to provide/enforce some set of ideas that provide some sort of stability in our lives. There seems to be a constant give and take between the desire of the stability offered by groups/institutions and the desire to act as an individual.

I think that it is unhealthy to overly restrict one's own thinking in order to conform. It creates a counter force in the other direction, as would a swing that moves too high in one direction, will then reverse and move too high in the other direction.

I agree that Truths is just the result of a consensus within a group. And it changes as the composition of the group changes. So, I personally, don't suggest that anything is a truth, just my opinion that is bound to change over time.

Rich

---------- Post added 08-26-2009 at 12:13 PM ----------

jgweed;85790 wrote:

I might take exception to including education and its institutions, at least in the borders of Western civilisation,

My view is that education is largely a method to teach people how they should think in order to conform within the given group. I think this is valuable at least as far as it goes. Then it is up to each individual (choice in direction)
to decide whether to conform and by how much. Of course, whichever direction an individual decides to go, there will always be outside influences as well as inside experience that will determine what is the next direction to go. So it is a constant steering.

I choose, for the most part, to express my own views which means that group conformity is something that I do but when I do it, I do not not express my own thoughts. It is both healthy (conform to the group) and unhealthy (suppress one's thoughts) at the same time.

Rich

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@jgweed,

I'm so passionate about this subject I hardly know what to say. I'll start by saying I may disagree with you JGWeed, which is rare. Now, I'm assuming you are referring to institutional education, since that's the topic. I don't believe educational institutions are primarily concerned with education, but instead with indoctrination and behavior modification.

I'll present a quote from a book (that I just happen to be reading at the moment) by Vance Packard called The People Shapers: "In the early 1970's an argument exploded in the behavior shapers' own Journal of Applied Behavior Analysis about conditioning in classrooms. R.A. Winett and R.C. Winkler, then of the State University of New York at Stony Brook, reviewed all the reports the Journal had published over a three-year period on the use of behavioral engineering in classrooms. They concluded that the behavior shapers were almost totally absorbed with training student to 'be still, be quiet, be docile.'" The book (published in 1977) gives examples were Kansas and Florida public schools and universities had been implementing behavioral engineering eagerly.

Now, on a personal level, I agree that education will essentially "set you free" and give some immunity to the controls placed by institutions, but that is a responsibility and drive of the individual to learn, and I don't believe it comes from a classroom/institution, generally. I don't think behavior modification is always a bad thing in schools either, but it should not be the primary goal. It could be a regional difference, but I know from personal experience that the Texas school system doesn't have education as its primary objective.

1 Reply

@chad3006,

chad3006;85799 wrote:

It could be a regional difference, but I know from personal experience that the Texas school system doesn't have education as its primary objective.

I don't think that the general approach of education is regional. The grading system, for example, which is pretty universal (though not completely so), is designed to teach uniformity and acceptable conformity. Now, one is free to rebel (as I often did in school), but then one gets the lower grade.

I have observed that this becomes even more evident as one moves higher in education as universities and their staffs via mechanisms such as research grants, diplomas, thesis acceptance, tenure possibilities, as well as public ridicule, enforce conformity. But I think this is one side of an equation. There are ways to develop as an individual as well as learning how to conform to some of the acceptable group/institutional demands. It is all part of life. Learning to be an individual. Learning how to relate with other individuals.

Rich

0 Replies

@Yogi DMT,

The People Shapers also describes psychological brain washing techniques (Debilitation, Dread, and Dependency) which are frighteningly like the techniques the CIA has/is reportedly using on detainees. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the "enhanced interrogation techniques" are not designed to gather information from detainees, but rather to change their minds to a more docile, manageable state. At the very least it'll be used to gain real world experience in brain washing. Furthermore, this is not the only instance I've read such a thing. Naomi Klein, in The Shock Doctrine describes these techniques being used not only for detainees, but also in world economies as well. And then there is the Mohawk Valley Formula which is also designed to control people. You can see that formula in action every day on FOX news.

---------- Post added 08-26-2009 at 01:54 PM ----------

Oh yeah, if you get a chance watch The Century of The Self. I think it's on youtube. Ok I'll stop preaching now, I'm out of breath!

1 Reply

@chad3006,

chad3006;85808 wrote:

The People Shapers also describes psychological brain washing techniques (Debilitation, Dread, and Dependency) which are frighteningly like the techniques the CIA has/is reportedly using on detainees. I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the "enhanced interrogation techniques" are not designed to gather information from detainees, but rather to change their minds to a more docile, manageable state. At the very least it'll be used to gain real world experience in brain washing. Furthermore, this is not the only instance I've read such a thing. Naomi Klein, in The Shock Doctrine describes these techniques being used not only for detainees, but also in world economies as well. And then there is the Mohawk Valley Formula which is also designed to control people. You can see that formula in action every day on FOX news.

---------- Post added 08-26-2009 at 01:54 PM ----------

Oh yeah, if you get a chance watch The Century of The Self. I think it's on youtube. Ok I'll stop preaching now, I'm out of breath!

That might be true, i'm not big into buying into various conspiracy theories but i like the way you said that they've turned the mind into a manageable state. Basically to do that you must breakdown someone's free will and silence them. Obviously on a different level, doesn't seem too far from what our society is doing to us today.

---------- Post added 08-26-2009 at 03:29 PM ----------

jgweed;85790 wrote:

I might take exception to including education and its institutions, at least in the borders of Western civilisation, as one which "keeps order and gives us a purpose in life." Education I suggest, does just the opposite from keeping order, for by providing the tools necessary for critical or skeptical thought, it allows us to challenge the predefined order and purpose in life. Indeed, isn't it the uneducated who, in their dull acceptance of both political and religious dogma, provide the means both use to keep order?

If there be no other Truth except "reality," and everything else is alleged to be "false truths," is it not through education that we learn "reality" and how to determine "false truths" from "true truths"?

If you want to see things go downhill, then tell people to avoid at all costs any sort of learning or education.

I respect your opinion but i believe education is an institution where this is most evident. With young minds, easily manipulated, it's not hard to design a curriculum to make everyone think a certain way. Without the necessary experience, the youth, believe everything that is taught in school. Not to say that the material isn't true but what material is being taught is questionable. It's actually scary to see that thinking for yourself and questioning authority is not condoned in educational foundations but ideas of following, obeying, and believing various controlling ideas are impounding into the minds of the youth.

1 Reply

@Yogi DMT,

Yogi DMT;85816 wrote:

With young minds, easily manipulated, it's not hard to design a curriculum to make everyone think a certain way.

I am unsure what making everyone "think in a certain way"actually means. Does it mean, for example, rationally or scientifically; does it mean 2+2=s4; or that Victoria was Queen of England? Is there more than one way to think, or perhaps more correctly said, to think correctly?And should not education teach correct thinking?
Again, doesn't education at least in large part, really concern itself with providing a student with a common stock of knowledge upon which to exercise his thinking?

Yogi DMT;85816 wrote:

Without the necessary experience, the youth, believe everything that is taught in school. Not to say that the material isn't true but what material is being taught is questionable.

I am not sure what counts as "necessary experience" but I fail to understand why it would somehow contradict what is taught in schools, since the material taught is admitted to be true. What is questionable about the material might be that schools do not teach untruth, or given the limits of time do not teach each and every subject and each and every factual piece of information (but how to look it up in the LIBRARY which contains all SORTS of books).

Yogi DMT;85816 wrote:

It's actually scary to see that thinking for yourself and questioning authority is not condoned in educational foundations but ideas of following, obeying, and believing various controlling ideas are impounding into the minds of the youth.

At least in the later stages of education, don't educators spend a great deal of time coaching students on independent thinking, teaching them how to do independent and critical research on the internet, don't they encourage in the classroom an exchange of ideas and interpretations, say, in current events or political discussions?
This seems a truer picture of the current state of affairs, at least in the West, than one of training modern counterparts of the Hitler Youth or the production of intellectual robots. And if the latter is the secret goal of all the professional and dedicated teachers, they have certainly failed utterly to achieve their purpose.

2 Replies

@Yogi DMT,

Education does have its moments of instilling either a false understanding or a bent perspective. Here is one example. I remember in high school in my history class there was a whole few chapters on rights as an American. Something dawned on me which I found to be incredibly ironic. It would say in public places your rights should not be violated, yet sitting in school, I saw that the rights of every student were never upheld but instead all taken away. You don't have the right to carry a firearm to school even if you have a concealed weapon permit. You don't have freedom of speech either. So how is it that in this public governmental environment where on one hand we teach freedoms and rights yet at the exact same moment you don't have any?

This is bent education, and something people accept without any consideration. Why be taught something only if it applies to specific cases and those specific cases are cleverly disguised from you?

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@jgweed,

Quote:

I am unsure what making everyone "think in a certain way"actually means. Does it mean, for example, rationally or scientifically; does it mean 2+2=s4; or that Victoria was Queen of England? Is there more than one way to think, or perhaps more correctly said, to think correctly?And should not education teach correct thinking?
Again, doesn't education at least in large part, really concern itself with providing a student with a common stock of knowledge upon which to exercise his thinking?

-- Thinking a certain way means to believe various truths, have various morals pounding into your brain, being taught a certain set of specific and chose knowledge, and act the way the your "supposed" to act. Not much to do with whether the learning taking place is more influenced by science, religion, ect. The school really imposes false views of success and accomplishment into our minds. To be honest, the schools barely engages in any quality learning anymore, it's all about grades, homework, busy work, and impounding useless ideas into our head over and over again and then having us regurgitate them again. It's one big competitition to see who can work hard, follow rules, and do what someone else wants you to do.

Quote:

I am not sure what counts as "necessary experience" but I fail to understand why it would somehow contradict what is taught in schools, since the material taught is admitted to be true. What is questionable about the material might be that schools do not teach untruth, or given the limits of time do not teach each and every subject and each and every factual piece of information (but how to look it up in the LIBRARY which contains all SORTS of books).

--- What i meant by the is the experience freely learning what you desire and learning in a more independent environment. The experience to choose for yourself what you want to learn and what you will believe. The material taught is definitely true, no doubt, but what type of material and the selection of what is taught and our curriculum is chosen fro a reason. I say, gain knowledge on your own that way your not being taught and raised a certain way based on other people's beliefs. Frankly, your not taught to believe the government is evil in school, not to say that it is, but not to say that it isn't.

Quote:

At least in the later stages of education, don't educators spend a great deal of time coaching students on independent thinking, teaching them how to do independent and critical research on the internet, don't they encourage in the classroom an exchange of ideas and interpretations, say, in current events or political discussions?
This seems a truer picture of the current state of affairs, at least in the West, than one of training modern counterparts of the Hitler Youth or the production of intellectual robots. And if the latter is the secret goal of all the professional and dedicated teachers, they have certainly failed utterly to achieve their purpose.

--- Maybe later on, yes, in college you are definitely taught to be more Independent. But in your early years up to the later years in high school, your mind is ripe for molding to think in a certain way and act in a certain way. Basically from your youth, you are taught, school, government, religion = good. Let you decide for yourself various morals and ethics. School is always telling you what's right and wrong. I definitely agree with you when you talk about a more open-minded type of thought and learning in college but it's really the youth that can be easily manipulated to follow and believe various "truths"

0 Replies

@Yogi DMT,

Yogi DMT;85779 wrote:

IMO there are three major instituions: Educational, Religious, and Political institutions are designed and formed to make us believe a certain truth. These institutions make us think a certain way. The positive: they give us organization, comfort, and stability. The negative: they restrict and limit us physically and mentally, they are essentially trying to turn us into conformists, and they impose false truths upon us.

All of these institutions are essentially set up to keep order and give us a purpose in life. Honestly, we don't know where we're going and we need some sort of comforting guide whether it be to succeed in the educational institutions, abide by the political society's standards and laws and be a "good citizen", or follow every word of "god" so that we may ascend to "heaven". Basically we need a purpose to life and it is very convenient to easily adapt to any of these institution's standards and way of life.

There is no certain truth besides reality, once we can realize that, we won't have the problem of needing certain truths to believe and rely on.

Truth being, without these guiding foundations, there probably would be chaos and mayhem. But this is a fundamental problem in humankind, letting us float and drift in this "chaotic" world and life of ours only can lead to problems. The truth is, without order and leadership, we cannot co-exist peacefully. What everything comes down to is a difference in opinion and perspective, we always need to see a "right" perspective to follow and live our lives by.

All this being said, i still believe that all these institutions are incredibly restricting, to and unhealthy point. We cannot live our lives to the fullest with all these limitations yet without them, things go downhill. Even though many limitations are physical, society creates a mental need to conform to standards. This again constricts us and has us living a very unpleasant and fake life.

Any thoughts?

Small prise to pay for the lesser of two evils.What you consider conformity,i call common sense.The individual person can adapt to any giving situation,but as a collective conscious,people are afraid of their own shadow.Even though you and i may differ in opinion about "mental limitations"we both know what would happen if none were in play.What can go wrong,will go wrong.

0 Replies

@jgweed,

jgweed;85928 wrote:

I am unsure what making everyone "think in a certain way"actually means. Does it mean, for example, rationally or scientifically; does it mean 2+2=s4; or that Victoria was Queen of England? Is there more than one way to think, or perhaps more correctly said, to think correctly?And should not education teach correct thinking?
Again, doesn't education at least in large part, really concern itself with providing a student with a common stock of knowledge upon which to exercise his thinking?

I believe, in the case of our public educational institutions, the goal is to teach obedience to authority first, and 'how to think correctly' second. This is through high school at least.

Look at the disciplinary and 'security' systems employed now at public schools, biased standardized testing that only requires rote learning and an adherence to exactly what the book or teacher teaches, physical 'education' requirements, working in partnership with military recruiting outfits, and as others have stated, little to no constitutional protections (free speech, right to privacy; two of the major ones being violated in the public education institutions).

I also really don't need to mention the biased teachings that take place, especially in subjects like history, politics/government, even music education classes that must teach modern 'urban music' to children instead of 'white, european' music. Now it may be fine for college students to get political professors who spin a subject like history in order to convince others of his view...they have hopefully learned how to think independently by that time. But adolescents, teenagers, they accept most of it without a second thought, because nothing in the curriculum mentions any teachings of 'critical thought' or 'logic' or 'media awareness'. It's rote memorization of a collection of facts.

Classes are dominated by standardized tests to where teachers are teaching to the test and not to the subject, and by cookie cutter teaching methods and programs that do not address the gifted or the failing student in a class. The list goes on.

The institution of education is much different from true 'education' itself. The former is an ugly, factory process, whereby we churn out 'educated citizens', who, on the whole, cannot even figure out simple things like paying off credit card debt, or how a mortgage works. I place a lot of blame on the institution of education, but would never place it on education itself, as that is an individual responsibility.

Real education must be sought by each individual, and it does not involve taking certain classes or obtaining a certain degree, it requires a certain type of thinking. Unfortunately, the public educational institution does not work to cultivate this type of thinking. Some teachers might, I had a couple, but they are the exception. Test scores, polls, personal experience, and the general decline of the apparent education of the masses seems to indicate that there's a problem there.

1 Reply

@Yogi DMT,

It's all about allowing a child to learn and it starts in the home with the child leading the parade. The Montessori Method is by far the most affective way of allowing a child to choose their own direction. At least it is the one I have found to be the most effective. More information can be found at thislink and of course there are others also. Still there are the antagonists of both religious and political institutions who wish to control what an individual learns using a nefarious grading system that rewards only those who conform to what "they" teach, with little regard to those who don't "measure up", in their opinion/dogma/tenet/beliefs. Without going into what I think of the educational system in America or the political or religious ramifications, I think the child is by far more important than anything, provided costs are not involve and allowing that child to freely choose that path that is most suitable to them.

The parents have to get involve too, in a much higher degree and that poses a major problem in that there are few who have the time nor do they understand the importance of attending to the child the way they should and they are having far to many to adequately care for. Again another problem.

We are a long way from cleaning up the mess we have made, but it starts with the child. As long as "adults' feel they are superior, this learning process will never work. As Deepak Chopra says, and I agree, "We are their 'caretakers'", mentors, guides, role models.

The child must understand the religious and political constructs that exist in the world and why they are there and that they are flawed. But in understanding that the child will, if unhindered, solve those problems as adults are too enslaved to it and are so compromised.

It will be a gradual process and all children must be allowed to resume that innate program they bring with them. And they do have one and it is impossible for anyone to teach that child, only allow them to freedom to choose and take up where they left off. We understand this as we use terms like prodigies and natural talents and abilities regardless of what level they are on in their evolving and must not be penalized or judge in any respect whatsoever for whatever level the are on and respected by all others, guides, parents and children on all levels for all have something to contribute.

Sad to say the Montessori Method is expensive, as I understand it, thought it should be the standard and free for all children of all nations. They are our future and it's time we come to a universal understanding of just that. Out of the mouths of babes; You BETTER BELIEVE IT, or we will all suffer those consequences if we don't. If you don't believe me, just take a look at what is behind those doors we have tagged as ADULTS ONLY. Wow, how exciting is that for a child to look forward to when they come of age, huh? Damn!:letme-at-em:

Great thread Yogi.

William

1 Reply

@William,

William;99659 wrote:

It's all about allowing a child to learn and it starts in the home with the child leading the parade. The Montessori Method is by far the most affective way of allowing a child to choose their own direction. At least it is the one I have found to be the most effective. More information can be found at thislink and of course there are others also. Still there are the antagonists of both religious and political institutions who wish to control what an individual learns using a nefarious grading system that rewards only those who conform to what "they" teach, with little regard to those who don't "measure up", in their opinion/dogma/tenet/beliefs. Without going into what I think of the educational system in America or the political or religious ramifications, I think the child is by far more important than anything, provided costs are not involve and allowing that child to freely choose that path that is most suitable to them.

You're right William. Education has to begin at home, with the parents. It makes no difference what private or public school a kid ends up in...if he doesn't get that flame for learning stoked at home at a young age, he is missing out, and parents are more responsible than anyone here. The call from parents for better schools is valid, but they need to also check their own home program (which should be in addition to outside schooling), if they believe their children are not becoming educated. Some parents work too much to be able to do this, and they regretfully end up with children at a time when they probably shouldn't, both for their sake, and especially the child's.

Quote:

Sad to say the Montessori Method is expensive, as I understand it, thought it should be the standard and free for all children of all nations. They are our future and it's time we come to a universal understanding of just that. Out of the mouths of babes; You BETTER BELIEVE IT, or we will all suffer those consequences if we don't. If you don't believe me, just take a look at what is behind those doors we have tagged as ADULTS ONLY. Wow, how exciting is that for a child to look forward to when they come of age, huh? Damn!:letme-at-em:

I was in one of those Montessori schools for preschool actually...of course I don't remember much from that time, so who knows if it helped! It certainly seems to be better than the norm, from what I've read. Children need to be free to explore their own path, and should not be taught that this is bad.

As for the great treasures lurking for "ADULTS ONLY", i.e. behind the doors of shady interstate-exit video shacks, strip clubs, movie theaters, bars, gun shops...it's a shame. The other day I was thinking about how completely twisted it is that we make sure to have nc-17 ratings for a movie that has a significant amount of nudity...even if it is artistically portrayed (yea, this is arguable, I know), yet pg-13 ratings allow kids to hear pretty much all the language under the sun, and watch incredible scenes of violence, terror, death, and despair. How insane is this standard we have in society? Sex is still very taboo, you have to be 17 to watch anything like it...having a drink if you so choose is only allowable at 21. Yet, with your parents' permission, you can join up for combat in our military at age 16 or 17! No big deal, because we've been trained in accepting violence and war by the media since birth....really pathetic.

0 Replies

@Pangloss,

Pangloss;99633 wrote:

Real education must be sought by each individual, and it does not involve taking certain classes or obtaining a certain degree, it requires a certain type of thinking. Unfortunately, the public educational institution does not work to cultivate this type of thinking. Some teachers might, I had a couple, but they are the exception. Test scores, polls, personal experience, and the general decline of the apparent education of the masses seems to indicate that there's a problem there.

I think this is an important point: that education must be sought by the individual. The thing is: people learn in different ways.

I only learned after my formal education the real power of the question. In my early 20's I came across a theory of social cycles. Most of what I know about history comes from that period when I gobbled up history trying to see if there were social cycles or not. Actually it was during this time that I learned that the Germans instituted public education to assimilate Jews and Czechs. It worked with the Czechs... Thomas Jefferson, on the other hand saw public education as essential to democracy. How can people decide how to vote if they can't even read?

At any rate, I grew up hearing how my grandfather had to work 12 hours per day: six days per week when he was a child. So I had some built in gratitude for being able to sit at a desk with a bunch of books on math and science and art.

One of my favorite memories is of a paper I wrote in an English class about Emerson. I had suggested that Emerson supported thinking for yourself even if it leads to disagreement with religious authority. The teacher disagreed with my assessment and gave me "C." I guess he was trying to teach me about irony.

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Institutions imposing a certain truth upon the masses

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