Randomness

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Hello, everyone. I would have put this in an existing thread, but I couldnt find one where this would fit in. Sorry if there is one.

I am going to try to prove that randomness exists, without any crazy quantum mechanic explanations.

Assume first that God exists and has existed forever. Since God has existed forever, nothing could have caused God to exist. Therefore, God is random. Now assume that God doesn't exist. This implies that the area that encompasses reality itself has existed forever. Since the area that encompasses reality itself has existed forever, nothing could have caused it to exist. Therefore, the area that encompasses reality itself is random. Whether God does or does not exist implies that randomness does in fact exist. Thus, randomness exists.

---------- Post added at 12:28 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:24 AM ----------

When I say "the area that encompasses reality itself", I am not talking about our universe. I am talking about the multiverse, or EVERYTHING.

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@JeffD2,

Hello JeffD2.

JeffD2 wrote:

Assume first that God exists and has existed forever. Since God has existed forever, nothing could have caused God to exist. Therefore, God is random.

Would that not be the opposite of random ie there could be no alternative, no 50:50, as the existence of God is 100% probable? I'm a little lost Smile

[quote=JeffD2]Now assume that God doesn't exist. This implies that the area that encompasses reality itself has existed forever. Since the area that encompasses reality itself has existed forever, nothing could have caused it to exist. Therefore, the area that encompasses reality itself is random.[/quote] Why does the non-existence of God imply that the area that encompasses reality itself has existed forever?

[quote=JeffD2]Thus, randomness exists.[/quote] Agreed.

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@validity,

Would that not be the opposite of random ie there could be no alternative, no 50:50, as the existence of God is 100% probable? I'm a little lost

The definition of random is something that lacks a cause. The probability of something happening/existing can be 1 and still lack a cause.

Why does the non-existence of God imply that the area that encompasses reality itself has existed forever?

Without God, something had to of existed forever. I am calling this something the area that encompasses reality itself. You can't get something out of nothing.

Even if you could get something out of nothing, then that would imply that absolute nothingness came before something. You cant get more basic than absolute nothingness. Therefore absolute nothingness would be random.

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@JeffD2,

Well first, i'd like to first point out that not all us believe in an impersonal or personal so right then that disproves your first statement. God is an opinion, some people choose to have faith but it is not a fact nor a requirement. I'd say that randomness is a very complex issue because when we deeply analyze is there any true random occurance. The sparatic nature of an atom's electrons seem to be random but there has to be a valdi explanation for their movement. I'd like to think that everything that was ever real and unreal has a reason even if it is very obscure. Truly i do not beleive anything is random because everything is based on something else. Even though these random occurances may be very intricate, i do beleive that there is causation. That's just my perspective.

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@Yogi DMT,

Yogi DMT wrote:

Well first, i'd like to first point out that not all us believe in an impersonal or personal so right then that disproves your first statement. God is an opinion, some people choose to have faith but it is not a fact nor a requirement. I'd say that randomness is a very complex issue because when we deeply analyze is there any true random occurance. The sparatic nature of an atom's electrons seem to be random but there has to be a valdi explanation for their movement. I'd like to think that everything that was ever real and unreal has a reason even if it is very obscure. Truly i do not beleive anything is random because everything is based on something else. Even though these random occurances may be very intricate, i do beleive that there is causation. That's just my perspective.

What does that even mean? If your saying that some people dont believe in God, then I'm saying thats not that point. Whether God does or does not exist implies that randomness does in fact exist. I'm simly using God to cover every basis. This post isnt about proving Gods existence. It is about proving randomness.

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@JeffD2,

JeffD2 wrote:

I'm simly using God to cover every basis.

Yes i meant an impersonal or personal god. But what i'm try to say is that you are trying to prove randomness with the idea of god which is conflicted idea so therefore it shouldn't be used.

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@Yogi DMT,

Yogi DMT wrote:

Yes i meant an impersonal or personal god. But what i'm try to say is that you are trying to prove randomness with the idea of god which is conflicted idea so therefore it shouldn't be used.

What do you mean by conflicted, and why would that prove me wrong if it was a conflicted idea?

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@JeffD2,

JeffD2 wrote:

The definition of random is something that lacks a cause.

I think there needs to be distinction between that which has no cause and that which has a cause but whose outcome is not able to be determined.

Its your thread, so your definition trumps mine Smile

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@validity,

validity wrote:

I think there needs to be distinction between that which has no cause and that which has a cause but whose outcome is not able to be determined.

Its your thread, so your definition trumps mine

I believe that either God or the area which encompasses all of reality is random. If God exists, then God is random and the area which encompasses all of reality is not. If God doesnt exist, then the area which encompasses all of reality is random. I dont know if there is anything else that is truely random. But since at least one of those two are random, then randomness must exist.

There are many things that have a cause, but it appears that they dont. This is because their actions, or what they do, are so complex that we just dont understand the process.

For example, throwing a die into the air and having it land on 3. Many people would call this random, but its not. The very insant that the die leaves the persons hand, it can only land on a certain number (i dont know if i said that right). Factors in this throw include the position of the die when it left the end, how high it was thrown up, gravity, etc.

By the way, it is not my definition of randomness. It is the definition of randomness.

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@JeffD2,

I dont get the bit if god exists his random, you have to make a lot of assumptions to arrive at that conclusions.He sounds more like a teenage cool guy..EES RANDOM MAN.

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@xris,

xris wrote:

I dont get the bit if god exists his random, you have to make a lot of assumptions to arrive at that conclusions.He sounds more like a teenage cool guy..EES RANDOM MAN.

Assume God exists. God does not have a cause. Therefore God is random.

What assumptions am I making? Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Teenage cool guy? What?

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@JeffD2,

JeffD2 wrote:

Assume God exists. God does not have a cause. Therefore God is random.

What assumptions am I making? Seems pretty straight forward to me.

Teenage cool guy? What?

Its a british term for teenagers.random...
Sorry but i dont see how something that has existed outside of time can be judged as random.You either accept the concept of forever or you dont, he cant randomly exist at a certain moment in time.Time is the problem for you to conceive of or the lack of it.

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@JeffD2,

JeffD2 wrote:

By the way, it is not my definition of randomness. It is the definition of randomness.

It is the definition you are using.

I like definitions that do not lead to confusion (the confusion may not be shared with many). I think that the randomness of an event needs to be distinct from the randomness of something that has always existed. Events are processes, an eternal god is not a process.

Anywho, your thread, your definition. Smile

PS

Assume God exists. God does not have a cause. Therefore God is random.

If God has purpose, this randomness is a differnet kind of randomness to something that has no cause and no purpose.

I think the introduction of concepts such as cause and purpose to non-events is the problem.

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@JeffD2,

JeffD2 wrote:

Hello, everyone. I would have put this in an existing thread, but I couldnt find one where this would fit in. Sorry if there is one.

I am going to try to prove that randomness exists, without any crazy quantum mechanic explanations.

Assume first that God exists and has existed forever. Since God has existed forever, nothing could have caused God to exist. Therefore, God is random.

You've only played language games, you haven't proven anything. First of all the definition of randomness you are using is a definition of it but not the only one. Secondly, the definition does not fit your argument which is why it appears to work so well. If there is an eternal being called God that means that he exists outside of causality. If there is no causality then your definition of randomness is meaningless.

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@rhinogrey,

rhinogrey wrote:

You've only played language games, you haven't proven anything. First of all the definition of randomness you are using is a definition of it but not the only one. Secondly, the definition does not fit your argument which is why it appears to work so well. If there is an eternal being called God that means that he exists outside of causality. If there is no causality then your definition of randomness is meaningless.

Now there is a better way of putting it.

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