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What does "Thou Shalt not kill" mean anyway?

 
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 09:30 am
@Why phil,
Thou Shalt Not Kill from a biblical perceptive means You Shall Not MURDER another human being

Of course what is murder is relative, in war is the killing of an enemy soldier murder?, many ex combatants are haunted by this question

If you are of the Janes faith (a Hindu sect) then the killing of any life equates to murder. They go around with cloth over their mouths and sweep ahead of their step to avoid murdering an insect
Lily
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 10:27 am
@Alan McDougall,
I think it's weird to say that we all shouldn't kill animal because the Bible say so. The Bible doesn't say that we shouldn't kill animals, if anything the opposite. There are actually many laws about how you should sacrifice animals. You have to sacrifice to remain clean, to make God happy and so on. Jesus ate meat, an he was God himself (according to the Bible), and he should know what's wrong and what's right.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 May, 2009 09:14 pm
@Lily,
Lily wrote:
I think it's weird to say that we all shouldn't kill animal because the Bible say so. The Bible doesn't say that we shouldn't kill animals, if anything the opposite. There are actually many laws about how you should sacrifice animals. You have to sacrifice to remain clean, to make God happy and so on. Jesus ate meat, an he was God himself (according to the Bible), and he should know what's wrong and what's right.


The bible does not say we should not kill animals if fact yahew thrived on it and blood

Ten thousand sheep fifty thousands oxen twenty thousands pidgins were sacrificed on the alter to please god and the burning of it went up to his nostrils as a sweet fragrance

God then heard their prayers and .............................?

Oh please!!!!! Please god dont do this if you did that :perplexed:

Jesus was the Lamb of God the final sacrifice of blood
0 Replies
 
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 12:33 am
@Why phil,
"The bible does not say we should not kill animals if fact yahew thrived on it and blood"

However; the bible does say you can kill humans though, but implies as long as they are not of your kind. But there are exceptions to this too. If you basically sin in any way then your kinsmen should kill you on the spot.

But when you write something in stone, it's really hard to put in all it's footnotes. Just stick with the basics and let the other stuff come later on paper.
KaseiJin
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 07:22 am
@Lily,
Lily;62446 wrote:
Jesus ate meat, an he was God himself (according to the Bible) . . .


Please do forgive me just a bit of off-topicness here. We would be very hard pressed, actually to clearly demonstrate that according to the 'Bible,' Jesus was "God himself."

:surrender: I just couldn't resist.... Back to the topic folks. KJ
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Tue 12 May, 2009 02:15 pm
@Krumple,
Krumple wrote:
"The bible does not say we should not kill animals if fact yahew thrived on it and blood"

However; the bible does say you can kill humans though, but implies as long as they are not of your kind. But there are exceptions to this too. If you basically sin in any way then your kinsmen should kill you on the spot.

But when you write something in stone, it's really hard to put in all it's footnotes. Just stick with the basics and let the other stuff come later on paper.


That is exactly my point read Numbers chapter 31 and god supposedly commanded moses to get his soldiers to murder little children and rape young girls and commit genocide etc against the Evil Midianites
0 Replies
 
Bonaventurian
 
  1  
Reply Sat 16 May, 2009 07:28 pm
@Why phil,
Human persons, in virtue of their reason and will, and in virtue of the fact that they have been created in the image and likeness of God, have an infinite moral worth, and are themselves the ends of morality (in loving God, we must love men, since men are created in God's image and likeness).

Non-humans, however, have only an instrumental goodness.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 12:06 am
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian wrote:
Human persons, in virtue of their reason and will, and in virtue of the fact that they have been created in the image and likeness of God, have an infinite moral worth, and are themselves the ends of morality (in loving God, we must love men, since men are created in God's image and likeness).

Non-humans, however, have only an instrumental goodness.


I love my little pet dog, and I cant see him, with his little wagging tail and bright excited bouncing love, as only an instrumental goodness, that is cold

God put them on this planet and they have the same right to live on it as we do. It is humans that have defecated in our home we call earth, not animals

When I look around and read history like the holocuast , wars, unspeakable depravity, murder, rape,child abuse, I see these attributes only in humans

If we really reflect the image of God he must be a being we cannot trust, must fear, and has just like we humans have ugly attributes of unspeakable depravity. Does all that equate to you as a being of infinite perfect morals?

We must stop trying to attribute human qualities to a being of infinite power and intelligence. God simply is that which "is"


Evil resides only in humans, if we are trully created in the image and likeness of God, then so does evil reside in him?
Bonaventurian
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 12:22 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall wrote:
I love my little pet dog, and I cant see him with his little wagging tail and bright excited bouncing love as only an instrumental goodness, that is cold


Your dog exists for an ends, and it is clearly achieving that ends: it clearly amuses you and provides you comfort.

The problem with animals is that people project themselves onto the animals and in so doing anthropomorphize them (not in the sense of making corporeal, but certainly in the sense of "human-ifying" them).

Simply put, though, there's no real reason to think that your pet loves you, insofar as there's no reason to think that your pet has a will, and, in willing, wills you as an ends (as Kant commands every rational moral agent to will people as ends, not as means).

And suppose that your pet experiences some sort of pathological "feelings." So what? It doesn't have a reason whereby it can apprehend them. It's no better off than when my computer "realizes" that it has a virus.

But you "want" to say that your pet loves you and so forth and so on. On what grounds? On account of the animal's behavior? What is behavior? It's external. It gives no data whatsoever to us about the internal workings of the animal.

So let's suppose, then, that there's -no- way either for you to prove that the animal feels, judges, etc. and there's -no- way that I can prove otherwise. So what? We're talking about Christianity and the ten commandments. I'm just telling you what we Christians believe:

Animals exist solely as instrumental goods. They were made by God for us men in order to provide us comfort in our lifetimes, both for nourishment (food and drink) and as pets/aides (hunting dogs and the like).

In any case, your further objections are self-damning. You are right: only people have the ability to be "evil" in a moral sense. Do you know why? It's because animals have -no- capacity to be good in a moral sense. Why? Because they aren't moral agents.
ogden
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 07:35 am
@Bonaventurian,
It could be argued that the Ten Commandments are a result of Adam eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. This knowledge of good and evil (the tree) is the beginning of morality and the Ten Commandments are an articulation of that morality. This morality is then all that really separates humans from animals. How much more then we should take stock in our actions and ensure that our intensions are wholesome. For in the later times the laws will be written on the tablets of men's hearts.

(Trying not to stray off topic) I will say that my belief is that there is no difference between the intrinsic worth of any living thing, and that humans are indeed animals.

---------- Post added at 09:44 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:35 AM ----------

Bonaventurian wrote:
Human persons, in virtue of their reason and will, and in virtue of the fact that they have been created in the image and likeness of God, have an infinite moral worth, and are themselves the ends of morality (in loving God, we must love men, since men are created in God's image and likeness).

Non-humans, however, have only an instrumental goodness.


IT is NOT a fact that man was created in gods image. Man created god in his own image and that this wrongly places man at some higher level of worth, and thus justifies selfish narcasistic ideas. Man loves himself and therefore must love god.:shifty:
Bonaventurian
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 11:29 am
@ogden,
ogden wrote:
IT is NOT a fact that man was created in gods image. Man created god in his own image and that this wrongly places man at some higher level of worth, and thus justifies selfish narcasistic ideas. Man loves himself and therefore must love god.:shifty:


Even the Stoics, before the word of the Lord Jesus Christ was proclaimed to all men, understood that in nature there is a heirarchy of being, ranging from the corporeal/irrational to the incorporeal/rational, and saw that man stands squarely in the center of this heirarchy. Man being both corporeal and rational is at the top of the corporeal world, being rational, but at the bottom of the spiritual world, being corporeal.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 11:52 am
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian wrote:
Even the Stoics, before the word of the Lord Jesus Christ was proclaimed to all men, understood that in nature there is a heirarchy of being, ranging from the corporeal/irrational to the incorporeal/rational, and saw that man stands squarely in the center of this heirarchy. Man being both corporeal and rational is at the top of the corporeal world, being rational, but at the bottom of the spiritual world, being corporeal.


Nice post, I like it
0 Replies
 
ogden
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 May, 2009 01:13 pm
@Bonaventurian,
Bonaventurian wrote:
Even the Stoics, before the word of the Lord Jesus Christ was proclaimed to all men, understood that in nature there is a heirarchy of being, ranging from the corporeal/irrational to the incorporeal/rational, and saw that man stands squarely in the center of this heirarchy. Man being both corporeal and rational is at the top of the corporeal world, being rational, but at the bottom of the spiritual world, being corporeal.


A very fine post indeed.

I think you are saying that mans rationality places him above the animals and his physicality places him at the bottom of the spiritual.
This would support your claim that man is the beginning and the end of morality because there is no animal below to challenge his reasoning and no god above to refute it. Hopefully you are right because it would mean that we humans are rational enough not to destroy the living planet that supports us.

I would not argue that animals cognate on the same level as humans, only that it may be harmful to our overall wellbeing to use our superiority to justify destruction of other life. I question a morality that says that god put everything here for us. I question a mrality that says not to kill and then somehow justifies it.

How is it that the Isrealites justified so much killing.
I am sincerely interested so please don't think I am some crazy god hater or anything.Very Happy
0 Replies
 
 

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