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The Philosophy Of Liberalism Vs. Conservatism

 
 
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Tue 25 Aug, 2009 01:16 pm
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235;84993 wrote:
Conservative because they are suspicious of the government? I am a social liberal, but I believe that there are solutions that both protect individual freedom and help to solve the fiscal problems of the common man. Take the Public option: Why is it superior to a risk pool that could be set up by donation? You could have an option box on your tax return for donation and you would be given a tax deduction proportionate to how much you donate. This way it is not coercive. The money would be doled out in the form of vouchers for private insurance. At a rate of around $2000 a head you could insure 15,000,000 people with $30,000,000,000 (which comes to an average of $165 per tax payer assuming there are around 185,000,000 tax paying adults). Of course there would be costs for managing the money, but perhaps the insurance companies would cut the costs back some due to an increase in business. They could bid for the contracts each year.

The main objection would be the lack of guarantee as far as donations, but I think that the American taxpayer on average would be very receptive to such a plan and would donate.

Another big thing to tackle would be tort reform. I'm sure that hospital costs could be cut by implementing good tort reform measures.


Even though ideally government should have nothing to do with healthcare, I think you're proposal is acceptable from a libertarian perspective. I would, however, offer one suggestion; make this donation system a state, rather than federal, program. That adds another layer of protection from government and would generate more competition amoung the insurance companies that would be offering bids.

The same sort of thing should be done at a municipal level with basic utilities.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Aug, 2009 02:36 pm
@jimkass,
jimkass;85437 wrote:
You guys are arguing over the definitions of words denoting a position on some kind of political scale, but never get to the discussion of what the scale measures.

Conservative ? What do you conserve ?

Liberal ? Of what are you 'liberal'?


Freedom. Conserving freedom or being liberal with giving away freedom.
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 Aug, 2009 09:30 pm
@EmperorNero,
Maybe it is easier to think of it as individualism versus collectivism or
individual rights versus majoritarian rule

Do individuals have rights (natural rights or inalienable rights) which can not be denied them (ethically or morally) by government or by majority rule?

The US was initially founded on a view of inalienable rights and a government of limited size, scope and authority. Property was protected. Sufferage was limited to those with a stake in society.

The US has evolved into a society of universal sufferage, majoritarian rule, and a government of extensive size, complexity and scope. Is opposition to this development being liberal or being conservative?

Social conservatism and progressive liberalism both represent serious threats to individual liberties and rights. Social conservatism by passing laws which regulate private and personal behaviors. Progressive liberalism by using "the good of the people" or "equality and fairness" to supress personal freedoms and rights. I oppose both, does that make me a liberal or a conservative?
0 Replies
 
jimkass
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 09:54 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;86334 wrote:
Freedom. Conserving freedom or being liberal with giving away freedom.


I think the better scale is "the use of the coercive, police power of the state".

Neither side has any principled objection to using it, but one side is 'liberal' with it, and the other is 'conservative'.

I'm interested in what the leftists in the discussion would have to say.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 12:40 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;59424 wrote:
...conservatism on the other hand sees individual freedom as the highest goal, which means that some restrictions of it are acceptable for the overall benefit of keeping the rules of society intact. The rules of society, which ensure the most individual freedom of all, are required to be immutable. Because if we allow changing or interpreting no rule is secure.


It certainly wasn't the conservative executive and legislature that preserved Americans' individual freedom by instituting the Patriot Act or by expanding the powers of the executive branch to attempt to place it beyond the law, was it? Did that conservativism consider the rules of society to be immutable?

But it is genuinely naive to contend that changing or interpreting rules and laws renders anyone insecure. Go to your local courthouse and check out its law library. It houses hundreds, probably thousands of books, chronicling decisions that interpret and, in many cases, change the application of laws to reflect and conform to social change. Learn a bit about the laws of equity and their application to written law. Your view of laws and immutable qualities is pretty simplistic.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 01:11 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;87436 wrote:
It certainly wasn't the conservative executive and legislature that preserved Americans' individual freedom by instituting the Patriot Act or by expanding the powers of the executive branch to attempt to place it beyond the law, was it?


Correct. It's wasn't. The Republicans are in my estimation not conservatives today.

RDRDRD1;87436 wrote:
But it is genuinely naive to contend that changing or interpreting rules and laws renders anyone insecure. Go to your local courthouse and check out its law library. It houses hundreds, probably thousands of books, chronicling decisions that interpret and, in many cases, change the application of laws to reflect and conform to social change. Learn a bit about the laws of equity and their application to written law. Your view of laws and immutable qualities is pretty simplistic.


Simplistic, maybe. Yet you can't tell me how if we allow the rules to be interpreted away, how any of our freedoms are safe from being "changed".
I rather have a 19th century US constitution with a few flaws than one that only limits the rulers as long as they feel like it.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 01:42 pm
@EmperorNero,
Rules and laws are rarely "interpreted away." Rather they are interpreted in order to conform to the many ways in which our nations change over time. Laws that don't reflect public attitudes will be rejected, even repealed, if they're not brought into some balance of acceptability. What's important is that the law not lead but follow a good distance behind social change to avoid the vagaries in public attitudes.

I'm curious that you don't see the Republicans as conservative. What then are they? There's certainly nothing liberal in them that I can discern.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 02:08 pm
@EmperorNero,
The constitution is there to protect the people from it's rulers.
So if the rulers want more power, but are limited by the constitution, all they have to do is come up with a reason why the rules are "outdated" and have to be interpreted in their favor.
Since rules per definition limit someones freedom, some group can always be found that would be more equal to the rest of society without the rule.
So allowing the constitution to be changed really just means opening it up for being interpreted away.

The Republicans are luckily still somewhat owned by those who benefit from the status quo.
Still, the Republicans are more and more owned and do the bidding of the same masters as the Democrats. What these masters want is changing away from the concept of limited, controlled government and towards total control, their control.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 02:16 pm
@EmperorNero,
Nero, you're plainly a supporter of maintaining the status quo which itself can be a pretty slippery concept. In a changing world, a changing society, doesn't rigid adherence to status quo result in stagnation, atrophy and eventual demise?

Do you see this notion of status quo as having a unique relevance to the Constitution of the United States?
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 02:27 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;87462 wrote:
Nero, you're plainly a supporter of maintaining the status quo which itself can be a pretty slippery concept. In a changing world, a changing society, doesn't rigid adherence to status quo result in stagnation, atrophy and eventual demise?

Do you see this notion of status quo as having a unique relevance to the Constitution of the United States?


Of course I don't want to maintain the status quo in a technological sense.
I'm just in favor of not changing what works, politically.
I like technology changing. And the procedures should be adapted.
But the central concepts of society remain. Right doesn't become wrong from computers getting faster.
I think this notion of a changing world is more hype than anything.

I don't understand your last sentence.
0 Replies
 
RDRDRD1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 02:57 pm
@EmperorNero,
Some Americans seem to place an intense attachment to their Constitution and go to great lengths to divine the intentions of your founding fathers when construing its terms. Of course the Constitution has been repeatedly amended - to some extent legislatively re-interpreted - to meet changing times and emerging interests. Your Constitution and Bill of Rights seem to enshrine most of your political and legal freedoms. I was asking whether you thought these enactments needed to be rigidly preserved.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Tue 1 Sep, 2009 03:21 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;87472 wrote:
Some Americans seem to place an intense attachment to their Constitution and go to great lengths to divine the intentions of your founding fathers when construing its terms. Of course the Constitution has been repeatedly amended - to some extent legislatively re-interpreted - to meet changing times and emerging interests. Your Constitution and Bill of Rights seem to enshrine most of your political and legal freedoms. I was asking whether you thought these enactments needed to be rigidly preserved.


Yes, I want the constitution in it's original meaning preserved rigidly.

The constitution still enshrines most political and legal freedoms. Amending is less problematic than interpreting. But once we make the words mean something different than they are intended to mean, that doesn't mean much any more.
Just look at the example of the 2. amendment, where the argument on the left usually is: "those words don't really mean what they say".
0 Replies
 
Zetetic11235
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Sep, 2009 12:30 pm
@RDRDRD1,
RDRDRD1;87457 wrote:

I'm curious that you don't see the Republicans as conservative. What then are they? There's certainly nothing liberal in them that I can discern.


Social Conservatism


Fiscal Conservatism


Liberalism

Social Liberalism

Neoliberalism

Conservativism

So here is what we have in the way of sections of ideology. RDRDRD1 is correct in stating that traditionally conservatives support the status quo. The recent outreach to Classical Liberals by the Talk Show Host Brigade is somewhat farcical as they are not willing to follow through with the Classical Liberal any further than it suits them. Ask Glenn Beck or Rush Limbaugh if they think that all vice crimes should be legal (drugs, prostitution, free gambling, ect). I have a feeling they would say no, even though this clearly violates the classical Liberal's views. Libertarians are in essence classical liberals, but I have found it to be the case that in practice they often don't really endorse the logical outcomes of their stance and hence undermine the libertarian position (maybe we should call them Limbaughtarians). Actually the logical conclusion of this schizophrenic lunacy is Paleolibertarianism.
0 Replies
 
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Wed 2 Sep, 2009 12:59 pm
@EmperorNero,
Zetetic, don't go to wikipedia for political information. Its made up.
If you want to know about the battle of Hastings wikipedia may be fine.
But political information is unreliable there, at best. Some is just made up by activists.
There are enough political dictionaries on the interwebz that are not blatantly false.
Zetetic11235
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 02:40 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;87741 wrote:
Zetetic, don't go to wikipedia for political information. Its made up.
If you want to know about the battle of Hastings wikipedia may be fine.
But political information is unreliable there, at best. Some is just made up by activists.
There are enough political dictionaries on the interwebz that are not blatantly false.


Give me some links to them (I can't seem to find any academic sites). I know for certain that aside from maybe some parts of the articles on Conservatism and Neoliberalism, that the articles are essentially correct. I would like to get ahold of Safire's Political Dictionary.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 02:52 pm
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235;87881 wrote:
Give me some links to them (I can't seem to find any academic sites). I know for certain that aside from maybe some parts of the articles on Conservatism and Neoliberalism, that the articles are essentially correct. I would like to get ahold of Safire's Political Dictionary.


Just click the second google hit instead of wikipedia.
For example: Liberalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
You see the first sentence is essentially: "Liberalism has a lot of different definitions."
On the other hand, the wikipedia article starts out with a ridiculously false first sentence.
Liberalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Liberalism is the belief in the importance of individual freedom." - Which is misleading if not just plain wrong.
Zetetic11235
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 06:45 pm
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;87884 wrote:
Just click the second google hit instead of wikipedia.
For example: Liberalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)
You see the first sentence is essentially: "Liberalism has a lot of different definitions."
On the other hand, the wikipedia article starts out with a ridiculously false first sentence.
Liberalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
"Liberalism is the belief in the importance of individual freedom." - Which is misleading if not just plain wrong.


It is not misleading nor is it wrong if you have the requisite knowledge to understand that they are really talking about Classical(philosophical) Liberalism. It is absolutely correct. If you read the entire article on Standford you will find that the sentence from wikipedia is reasonably accurate, from the article:

"1.1 The Presumption in Favor of Liberty

'By definition', Maurice Cranston rightly points out, 'a liberal is a man who believes in liberty' (1967: 459). In two different ways, liberals accord liberty primacy as a political value. (i) Liberals have typically maintained that humans are naturally in 'a State of perfect Freedoma prioriFundamental Liberal Principle (Gaus, 1996: 162-166): freedom is normatively basic, and so the onus of justification is on those who would limit freedom, especially through coercive means. It follows from this that political authority and law must be justified, as they limit the liberty of citizens. Consequently, a central question of liberal political theory is whether political authority can be justified, and if so, how. It is for this reason that social contract theory, as developed by Thomas Hobbes (1948 [1651]), John Locke (1960 [1689]), Jean-Jacques Rousseau (1973 [1762]) and Immanuel Kant (1965 [1797]), is usually viewed as liberal even though the actual political prescriptions of, say, Hobbes and Rousseau, have distinctly illiberal features. Insofar as they take as their starting point a state of nature in which humans are free and equal, and so argue that any limitation of this freedom and equality stands in need of justification (i.e., by the social contract), the contractual tradition expresses the Fundamental Liberal Principle.
(ii) The Fundamental Liberal Principle holds that restrictions on liberty must be justified, and because he accepts this, we can understand Hobbes as espousing a liberal political theory. But Hobbes is at best a qualified liberal, for he also argues that drastic limitations on liberty can be justified. Paradigmatic liberals such as Locke not only advocate the Fundamental Liberal Principle, but also maintain that justified limitations on liberty are fairly modest. Only a limited government can be justified; indeed, the basic task of government is to protect the equal liberty of citizens. Thus John Rawls's first principle of justice: 'Each person is to have an equal right to the most extensive system of equal basic liberty compatible with a similar system for all' (Rawls, 1999b: 220)."


Source: Liberalism (Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy)


Every stance presented on that page argues for personal Liberty, they differ only in scope and implementation. The only thing that the wikipedia article can be criticized for is some degree of over simplification. The aim of liberalism is to assume that individual freedom is of great importance, and that it can be compromised only if one can successfully justify the compromise. Typically the compromise is struck only if a restriction on individual liberty prevents other more costly restrictions of liberty and life from taking place; e.g. disallowing the act of murder.

Stanford does elucidate the fact that modern leftist and Libertarian ideals share a common background and have been, in many cases, drawn from a shared assumption. The most striking differences are in the details, the implementation. The theories have a great deal in common, the practices do not. If one does not start with the assumption that personal liberty is the apex of importance, but simply accepts the conclusions of one branch of liberal philosophy without exploring the premises then it would be inappropriate to call oneself a 'liberal'. The prevalence of the misuse of the term refering to those who fall under that very category of ignorant policy pushers is at the root of the confusion and I think that it has caused some division amongst those who would otherwise be open to intelligent debate.
EmperorNero
 
  1  
Reply Thu 3 Sep, 2009 07:15 pm
@Zetetic11235,
Zetetic11235;87914 wrote:
It is not misleading nor is it wrong if you have the requisite knowledge to understand that they are really talking about Classical(philosophical) Liberalism. It is absolutely correct. If you read the entire article on Standford you will find that the sentence from wikipedia is reasonably accurate, from the article:


That's exactly why it is misleading.
The (modern) liberals who wrote that stuff on wikipedia refer to classical liberalism, as if it were modern liberalism, which politically is the opposite.
Disguising the fact that their ideology pulled of a Orwellian name-change.
Zetetic11235
 
  1  
Reply Fri 4 Sep, 2009 07:16 am
@EmperorNero,
EmperorNero;87920 wrote:
That's exactly why it is misleading.
The (modern) liberals who wrote that stuff on wikipedia refer to classical liberalism, as if it were modern liberalism, which politically is the opposite.
Disguising the fact that their ideology pulled of a Orwellian name-change.



Actually, the ideology from which true modern social Liberalism stems is the same at its most basic level as modern Libertarianism. They differ vastly in implementation and the specifics of hinderence and what can be justified.

The modern 'Liberals' are no group of people I have met. There are idiots who just want to push policy through without thinking about and looking at exactly what they are passing and analyzing its possible flaws it for 'the sake of compassion', but they are not by far the only people who might call themselves (falsely) liberals. If the talk show hosts were really interested in getting good politics going, they would have used their voices to dispel the idea that such people are liberal (they are not), such people are sheep and not worthy of grouping under any ideology. I know plenty of people who understand the Liberal ideology and follow it, some take a more Social Liberal stance, some take a more Libertarian stance, but they all hold individual freedom as their greatest political goal. That some social liberals might resort to using people who don't understand their reasoning by emotional manipulation is unfortunate, but it is erroneous to use 'Liberal' in the way that modern conservatives and some pin-headed policy pushers do.

The reason that neither Stanford nor Wikipedia address the modern American 'liberal' is because they are not Liberals. Using the word 'Liberal' for them is at worst a deliberate obscurantist tactic and at best bald faced ignorance.
BrightNoon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Sep, 2009 08:32 pm
@Zetetic11235,
1. The liberal-conservative, left-right dichotomy is false; i.e. it does not exist. If we are to take the two American parties, or the major British parties as examples of the ideological divide, there is no divide at all. Liberals push through statist legislation concerning economics and property, while the conservatives make a show of opposing it; the people vote them out and vote conservatives in; the conservatives repeal nothing. Conservatives then push through statist legislation concerning civil liberties, while the liberals make a show of opposing it; the people vote them out and vote in liberals; the liberals repeal nothing. And round and round we go. Can't you see it's a game? A deliberate distraction? A tactic for the same agenda? To oppose statism in economics but support it in the realm of civil liberties, or vice versa, is hypocritical. The only two real ideological divisions, within which all coherent political philosophies lie, are individualism and collectivism. Keep in mind though that not everyone is ideological. The people at the top aren't, and so have no qualms about using the feaux right-left game pragmatically to achieve their own ends.

2. Demanding that constitional rights and government be maintained is not equivilent to demanding the maintenance of the status quo. If you are a libertarian, only a tiny part of society and life consists of government. Ergo, the status quo of society can change remarkably, unrecognizably, while that tiny government fraction remains etched in stone. The idea that libertarians are luddites or something is absurd. Moreover, if a change is desired in that fraction, there are legal ways of affecting it: i.e. ammending the constitution. The only reason that government doesn't take this route, but instead subverts the consititution by stealth, is that, if debated openly and at length as must occur during the ammendment process, the people would discover that almost all of this 'progress' is against their interests. So yes, the right of free speech e.g. must be newly applied as technology advances. But there is a far cry between application of the first ammendment to the internet and an interpretation of the first ammendment such that that individual right must be weighed against a collective right. An especially egregious example of this general legal concept now of weighing individual rights against the suppposed interests of the collective is the new use to which the emminent domain power is being put; seizing private property so that another private entity, e.g. a shopping mall, can use the land. The weighing of individual against collective interests has already been done; the balance is reflected in the rights and responsibilities of citizens and government in the constitution. There can be no further weighing as we go along if individual rights are going to mean anything. Can't you see that if government is given the power to interpret the rights of the individual, the individual has lost those rights already; they've become privilages.
 

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