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Can science agree with the concept of life after death?

 
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2009 06:04 am
@Leonard,
I accept that you may be fair-minded and impartial in this matter. Generally speaking, many people on this forum are. It is also the case, hopefully, that there will be a more open minded approach to such topics as this kind of research. But I don't think it is controversial to claim that generally the mainstream scientific attitude towards such matters has been dismissive. It also is confronting, in the sense that should it be found to occur, it is hard to imagine anything in current scientific understanding which would provide a theoretical means for it to happen. I personally am willing to entertain the idea that there might be fields which are psychological in nature, in the same way that magnetic fields have been proved to exist. Let's see what develops.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2009 06:08 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;94535 wrote:
Maybe the world you live in. It doesn't affect my view of the world that much, one way or the other.


I suppose it depends on how much you know about science.

---------- Post added 10-01-2009 at 08:16 AM ----------

jeeprs;94542 wrote:
OK, Ian Stevenson. This case is taken from Old Souls, by Thomas Shroder. Old Souls is a journalistic account of several field trips Shroder took with Stevenson in the 90's to Lebanon and India where he observed some of the interviews and recorded his experiences.

To recap, Stevenson held a privately-funded chair at the University of Virginia in the 'Department of Perceptual Studies', a unit mainly concerned with studies of what are commonly known as 'paranormal phenomena'. Stevenson researched children who remembered their previous lives and in the course of his career, investigated over 3,000 cases over 35 years. His modus operandi was to interview the children and their families and try and corroborate their stories. He was meticulous in his methodology and skeptical in his own way, with a file he kept in his office of 'extravagent claims', with many cases who claimed to have been Jefferson or Naploean or Mary Magdalene and the like (1). He was said to have discarded far more cases than he finished on the grounds they were either fraudulent or couldn't be documented.

According to his obituary 'His magnum opus [was] a 2-volume, 2268-page monograph reporting over 200 cases in which highly unusual birthmarks or birth defects of the child corresponded with marks, usually fatal wounds, on the previous person.

Dr. Stevenson saw this research as indicating a possible third factor, in addition to genetics and environment, in the development of human personality. His emphasis, however, was always on the evidence, and his greatest frustration was not that other scientists dismissed his interpretations of the evidence, but that most of them did so without even bothering to read the evidence that he had so painstakingly assembled.' (2)

He retired in around 2004 and died in 2007.

Now extracting cases from the Old Souls book is quite time consuming as it is written as a narrative rather than case studies. However, one was that of Daniel Jirdi, a Lebanese boy who, from the time he could speak, claimed to remember his previous life as one Rashid Kardegge, a mechanic who had died in a car accident outside Beirut, 18 months before Jirdi's birth. He was first interviewed at age 9 during which interview he gave details of who was in the car, where they were travelling to, and the circumstances of the accident. Prior to this, from the age of 2-3, he remembered the name Rashid Kardegge, that he had lived in a town called Kfarmatta, which he had not visited, but could pronounce. He remembered details of the previous life, such as his occupation, and so on. His family were Druze, and the Druze accept re-incarnation; however the father had claimed to be skeptical. One weakness in this case was that the families had met before Stevenson did the first interview; in this meeting, the child appeared to know Rashid's sister and called out her name as soon as he saw her.

Subsequently a newspaper clipping of the accident was located, with great difficulty, on microfilm, by Stevenson's researchers, which neither family had seen. It confirmed some details of the accident which were unknown to any of the family, but which Daniel had been able to give an account of.

There are a number of other cases in Shroder's book. The pattern is always the same; child, usually from when they can speak, claims to be in the 'wrong family' or says 'you are not my mother', etc. Many of the cases in India involved a lot of travel on very poor roads to remote villages. Stevenson was meticulous in cross-checking, interviewing, digging up press stories, and the like. As mentioned above, he found a number of cases where children had birthmarks corresponding to the site of fatal injuries in the previous existence. These were always sort of 'trophy cases'. There are also a number of cases which were closed due to lack of corroboration or the possibility of fraud, and so on. But the most solid of the cases are very difficult or impossible to explain by other means, as I note below.

Reactions - as observed previously, most scientists ignore Stevenson. A skeptical researcher, Paul Edwards, wrote a book called Reincarnation: A Critical Examination, highly critical of the concept of reincarnation. He was obliged to acknowledge, however, that Stevenson's responses, correspondence, documentation and general demeanour were always extremely thorough and professional, which left him with no choice but to claim that all the children interviewed, and their parents, the witnesses, and so on, were lying, consciously or otherwise. In itself, this is interesting, because it shows that the best the most skeptical and diligent of researchers could come up with about Stevenson's data was that it was all a massive conspiracy of some kind; the implications of the evidence itself could not be disputed. (There have been suggestions that they were a result of some kind of 'telepathic transfer of information' however this is obviously no less outlandish than the re-incarnation you are trying to disprove.)

My take - I didn't finish the Old Soul's book. Once you get over the fact that re-birth might actually happen, it is not that exciting (I hate to admit). But I encourage anyone interested to look into Stevenson's work and form their own view; I certainly don't want to persuade anyone reading this post that 'reincarnation occurs' but I would take exception to any suggestion that Stevenson was fraudulent, sloppy, mislead, or deluded, simply because what his data suggested 'could not possibly be the case'. He always conducted himself with a considerable degree of professional diligence and went to a lot of trouble to ensure that the evidence he collected would stand up to critical scrutiny, and I for one would like to honour that.

1. indeed one of the compelling, and somewhat poignant, facts about Stevenson's cases is the extremely ordinary nature of the remembered lives; far from being celebrities or princesses, most of the remembered lives were exceedingly ordinary and often ended in tragic or futile circumstances.
2. http://www.healthsystem.virginia.edu/internet/personalitystudies/publicationslinks/Stevenson-s-Obit-Emily.pdf


Are there any purported cases of reincarnation from the West (rather than the East?) I mean from first world countries where science is a way of life? I am put in mind of how many "miracles" occurred in the ancient world of the Bible, and how they have diminished markedly in modern times.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2009 06:54 am
@Leonard,
jeeprs wrote:

it is hard to imagine anything in current scientific understanding which would provide a theoretical means for it to happen.


Is it? What if, for instance, personality properties and/or memories somehow persist through DNA? A wild speculation, yes, but just because we have no natural explanation now does not mean that we won't later. There's so much about the human body we don't know about yet and many more scientific discoveries waiting to be... discovered. Someone will find a theoretical means to accompany anything!

Quote:

But I don't think it is controversial to claim that generally the mainstream scientific attitude towards such matters has been dismissive.


Alright, I'll stop going back and forth with you guys. But I will say this: Most criticisms I've read concerning Ian Stevenson (admittedly just a handful) were on his method, not his conclusion (reincarnation). And I rarely see people dismissing even what's dubbed psuedo-scientific work on the basis of the conclusion alone - it's usually some holes in the method which discredits the work in some way.
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2009 07:16 am
@Zetherin,
Science in it self is not objecting to the investigation but those who administer its societies. Its not a holy cow that can never be accused of malpractice, look at the corporate driven sciences that can oppose advances, if it attacks profits.

The initial response, is my objection. Take the recent posts on those reported events of children retaining memories of the deceased. How many of you objected and then admitted little knowledge of this research.

The doctor who investigated alien abduction as phenomena was initially accused of all types of sins and the university has forever tried to dismiss his findings with the ardour of the witch hunters. There are many well known examples of the scientific world rebuking previously well respected scientists for embarking on subjects that can not perform laboratory experiments, to their high ideals. This is a grey area where none of us can be certain one way or the other about the real truth but we should be more patient and less critical if it takes longer to examine. It needs more effort and less dismissal of well meaning investigations.
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2009 09:42 am
@xris,
xris;94571 wrote:
Science in it self is not objecting to the investigation but those who administer its societies. Its not a holy cow that can never be accused of malpractice, look at the corporate driven sciences that can oppose advances, if it attacks profits.

The initial response, is my objection. Take the recent posts on those reported events of children retaining memories of the deceased. How many of you objected and then admitted little knowledge of this research.

The doctor who investigated alien abduction as phenomena was initially accused of all types of sins and the university has forever tried to dismiss his findings with the ardour of the witch hunters. There are many well known examples of the scientific world rebuking previously well respected scientists for embarking on subjects that can not perform laboratory experiments, to their high ideals. This is a grey area where none of us can be certain one way or the other about the real truth but we should be more patient and less critical if it takes longer to examine. It needs more effort and less dismissal of well meaning investigations.


I was misunderstanding you earlier, because how you articulated the thought here, I, for the most part, agree with.

I think the problem was our different uses of word "science".
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2009 02:40 pm
@Leonard,
I think the issue in all of this is the distinction between 'scientific method' and the outlook of scientific materialism or physicalism.

In answer to Kennethamy's question, many more cases of children who rememebr their previous lives came from countries where belief in re-incarnation was culturally acceptable. However as Stevenson pointed out, this could also be attributed to the fact that in cultures where re-birth is not accepted, parents and onlookers would be much less likely to notice or report cases. It is clear from the case studies that children lose these memories fairly rapidly if they are not written down.

The point in all of this, and also in all research about telepathy, clairvoyance, and other 'paranormal phenomena', is that not only are the means by which such phenomena occur difficult to account for according to scientific models, they really go against the grain of the scientific outlook, which is nearly always some form of naturalism or materialism.

kennethamy;94557 wrote:
I suppose it depends on how much you know about science....I am put in mind of how many "miracles" occurred in the ancient world of the Bible


St. Augustine: "Miracles are not contrary to nature; they are contrary to what we know about nature".

I studied science up until leaving school, and currently I read a fair number of popular science books (Paul Davies, Brian Greene, et al) and New Scientist. On scientific questions I will always defer to the experts. But the comment itself assumes that 'the scientific worldview' would mitigate against any such belief as 're-birth' presumably because these views are 'superstitious' or 'primitive' - or non-scientific.

But this is not a 'scientific' attitude; it is a cultural attitude. It is understandable, also, because re-birth has never been part of the Western outlook and it is indeed culturally alien and an afront to common sense in some respects. So I do understand the antagonism towards it. But my attitude about this phenemonon and so-called 'paranormal phenomena' in general is that there is evidence that they occur. I don't think the fact that I accept these things occur makes me superstitious. I don't go to Tarot card readings, or consult astrologers or mediums. But our 'picture of the world' is changing, and has to change. The naturalist view simply leaves too much out. There are big changes coming in this matter.

In fact I think the so-called scientific materialist view of life really at an end; we are actually on the verge of a new phase in civilization, which I believe will be based on scientific idealism. Many of the concepts which underpinned the modern-scientific attitude are under a great deal of pressure from many sources. But that is a topic for another thread.
0 Replies
 
Zetherin
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2009 03:24 pm
@Leonard,
jeeprs wrote:
But this is not a 'scientific' attitude; it is a cultural attitude


That's simply what I wanted to get across earlier (to you and xris).

Though, I realize now I may have been making an error in judgment, because, as you note, even the notion of "science" can change culture to culture. Maybe the testimonies Stevenson documented would be regarded as scientific evidence by a mind located in the East. I'm really only familiar with Western science.

Quote:
In fact I think the so-called scientific materialist view of life really at an end; we are actually on the verge of a new phase in civilization, which I believe will be based on scientific idealism


I had to research "scientific idealism" as I had never heard of such a thing. This is what I found:

Quote:
The scientific idealism brings a more elegant and comprehensive theory than the materialism. It profess that the entire universe is a thinking substance composed with mathematical forms. It does not change anything to our daily reality and does not contradict science.


It sounds like a spiritual/philosophical interpretation of science as we know it today. But aren't there many that are already on board with this? I mean, a lot of people don't just stop at the hard numbers and say "Ok, that's it!", especially on this forum. The underlying question "Why" still seems increasingly prevalent. I think the cultural attitude you and xris point out is diminishing; we are consistently opening our minds little by little, so if this is what you meant by "on the verge of a new phase in civilization", I agree.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2009 03:40 pm
@Leonard,
Well I think the 'educated elite' are on board with it, but the popular notion of where science is at is actually back at around the early 1900's.

In many ways it is 'back to the future'. There has always been a strongly idealist strain in Western science and philosophy; it is just that for this most recent period, the physicalist intepretation has held sway. And in many ways it was completely necessary and what the times needed. It resulted in the most amazing burst of technical and scientific creativity that the world has ever seen. But now is the time to re-integrate this with a broader spiritual culture. I think that is what is starting to occur.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Oct, 2009 12:25 am
@Leonard,
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Oct, 2009 12:45 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;94719 wrote:
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident." - Arthur Schopenhauer


However, that does not mean that whatever passes through those three stages is true. Just as just because all creative people are eccentric, that doesn't mean that all eccentric people are creative.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Oct, 2009 01:24 am
@Leonard,
no but they are usually much more FUN to be around though
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Oct, 2009 01:46 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;94725 wrote:
no but they are usually much more FUN to be around though


But, as you realize, that's not the point.
0 Replies
 
Leonard
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2009 09:47 pm
@Leonard,
My intention was not to prove or disprove 'rebirth', rather if we do or do not have some astronomical legacy following death.

---------- Post added 10-03-2009 at 10:57 PM ----------

xris;94571 wrote:
The doctor who investigated alien abduction as phenomena was initially accused of all types of sins and the university has forever tried to dismiss his findings with the ardour of the witch hunters. There are many well known examples of the scientific world rebuking previously well respected scientists for embarking on subjects that can not perform laboratory experiments, to their high ideals. This is a grey area where none of us can be certain one way or the other about the real truth but we should be more patient and less critical if it takes longer to examine. It needs more effort and less dismissal of well meaning investigations.


Dimethyltryptamine
has been found to produce psychological effects similar to the aforementioned phenomena. It may be produced endogeneously. This chemical is also found in psilocybin, and other drugs. The pineal grand can release massive doses of this chemical, and if given intraveneously, the same effects are described by patients who are both monitored physiologically and observed while given the dose. Any phenomena seen by groups can easily be refuted by coincidence, a massive source of DMT, or other such things.

Though DMT is often associated with near-death experiences, what i'm looking for is an explanation of what could possibly be observed following someone's death; does anything happen in the space surrounding them to indicate a disturbance?
xris
 
  1  
Reply Sun 4 Oct, 2009 03:15 am
@Leonard,
Leonard;94981 wrote:
My intention was not to prove or disprove 'rebirth', rather if we do or do not have some astronomical legacy following death.

---------- Post added 10-03-2009 at 10:57 PM ----------



Dimethyltryptamine has been found to produce psychological effects similar to the aforementioned phenomena. It may be produced endogeneously. This chemical is also found in psilocybin, and other drugs. The pineal grand can release massive doses of this chemical, and if given intraveneously, the same effects are described by patients who are both monitored physiologically and observed while given the dose. Any phenomena seen by groups can easily be refuted by coincidence, a massive source of DMT, or other such things.

Though DMT is often associated with near-death experiences, what i'm looking for is an explanation of what could possibly be observed following someone's death; does anything happen in the space surrounding them to indicate a disturbance?
The operative word is similar, it may be similar but it is not the same as you well know. The most important thing is the personal effect it has on the individual , no one who has it chemically induced, talk of a life changing experience as they do with nde's.

The alien experience is not necessary about aliens or abduction in any normal sense but the phenomena has a very long lasting effect on those who experience them. To discount those who have researched them and have found, by investigation, more than the normal psychological reasons , as charlatans, is the reaction we have come to expect.
0 Replies
 
Leonard
 
  1  
Reply Tue 3 Nov, 2009 07:37 pm
@Leonard,
These experiences are often more religious than terrifying.
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Wed 4 Nov, 2009 01:56 am
@Leonard,
It is hard to see how "life after death" could be
Falsified so it is not a scientific notion
or
Verified so if you are a logical positivist it is a meaningless proposition.

You can still make a speculative philosophical assertion or a metaphysical assumption though.
0 Replies
 
 

 
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