I'm not really sure what my question is.

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We are doing what we are doing because it helps you.

[INDENT]Fast speaks: But sir, you are not doing what you are doing because it helps us.
[/INDENT]
Doesn't it help you?

[INDENT]Yes, it does help us, and I thank you for that, although I suspect you deserve no thanks.
[/INDENT]
If it helps you, then what's the problem?

[INDENT]The problem is you're lying; that makes you a liar.
[/INDENT]
How have we lied? We have helped you, we said we have helped you, and you agree that we have helped you.

[INDENT]I don't disagree. You have helped us. I'm only disagreeing with what you said. You didn't merely imply that you have helped us. You also purport why (or the reason) you are helping us. Yes, you are helping us, but you are not helping us (or doing what you're doing) because it helps us.
[/INDENT]
Oh, so you question our motivations then.

[INDENT]Yes, I most certainly do. You are telling the truth when you imply that you are helping us, but you lie as to the reason why you are helping us.
[/INDENT]
Since you seem to think you know so much about what is going on in our minds, then do please tell us why you think we're doing what we're doing if not to help you.

[INDENT]You're doing what you're doing because it helps you.
[/INDENT]
We both mutually benefit. Helping you helps us. It's a win-win situation. Again, we do what we do, and we do what we do to help you. That it helps us doesn't imply that we are not also doing it to help you.

[INDENT]But, you didn't do before what you're doing now even though you could have done before what you're doing now. In fact, you resisted doing before what you now must do to survive. Why the wait? Why wait until you must do it to do it? Yes, you're doing it, and doing it helps us, and doing it most certainly helps you, but you're still a liar, for you didn't do it to help us. You are doing it to help yourselves. That we are helped is incidental.
[/INDENT]
Do you have so little trust as to actually think we do not want to help others? Don't you find your judgment a bit unreasonable? Have you not hastened to your biased judgment? Aren't you projecting what you know to be true about a few others onto us?

[INDENT]A few my ass!
[/INDENT]

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@fast,

I agree, I'm not sure what your question is either, perhaps you just needed a place for a small rant?

Lost1

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@fast,

I'm not sure I get it, but I like it.

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@Lost1 phil,

[QUOTE=Lost1;125406]I agree, I'm not sure what your question is either, perhaps you just needed a place for a small rant?[/quote]

Lost1;125406 wrote:

Lost1

Hmmm. Perhaps that highlights the very question we should ask: "Should Fast be ranting at all?"

When I read what fast writes, I can't help but think he's failing to provide sufficient evidence to support his views. In fact, it appears as though he's using nothing much more than antidotal evidence to justify his beliefs. That seems to signify some poor judgment on his part, but the implication of that last line intrigues me. He says, "a few my ass!"

How much blood needs to be spilt before one bleeds to death? Or with less riddle, how much antidotal evidence is it going to take before people see that an optimistic perspective is misguided. We live in a capitalistic culture, and he has no problem with that (none at all; I know, I asked him), but he tells me that people are deceitful when it comes to expressing their motivations for what they do. To put it plainly, fast thinks most people are (and often are) full of ****.

I know fast, and he doesn't generally hold extremist views. He tends to be somewhat moderate. The truth (I think) is likely somewhere between the extreme ends, as they say, but he denies that. He seems to actually think that people often misrepresent their motivations--not just by businesses and politicians seeking to improve their image in every way possible but that it also extends to many social situations that even includes the happens at the kitchen table:

[CENTER]What's the real motivation behind the kind gestures?[/CENTER]

Would you like a piece of chicken?
Oh yes; thank you. Why did you offer it to me?
Because it's kind of cold, and I wanted to give it to you so I could get a hot one that's about to come out.

Would you like a glass of milk?
Oh yes; thank you. Why did you offer it to me?
Because the jug is about empty, and I want fresh milk out of the next jug. I thought I'd give the old milk to you so I could get some out of the new jug.

There are literally thousands of examples. One common objection might be that fast is not properly reading people right and that he can't actually know what's going on in people's minds and that he is making many mistakes. However, there are many times when beliefs can be confirmed by noting recurring patterns of behavior in people.

Another common objection might be that fast is not counting the hits with the misses. In other words, he is only counting the times when people are deceptive and not counting the times when they are not. However, that's simply not the case.

Another objection might be that his bias is skewing the results and is predisposed to doubt the motivations of others and is therefore concluding what he believes to be true. However, fast tries to be objective. He wants (he actually wants to) disprove his belief.

It would seem that if we should indeed question his judgment and claim that his judgment is faulty because he bases his conclusions on antidotal evidence, then perhaps he needs to keep a journal of every instance where someone says something about their motivations so the evidence won't be so antidotal.

PS: I'm not mentally gone (at least not quite yet); someone moved my thread to creative writing, so let 'em weep what they sow. Very Happy

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@fast,

Quote:

Would you like a piece of chicken?
Oh yes; thank you. Why did you offer it to me?
Because it's kind of cold, and I wanted to give it to you so I could get a hot one that's about to come out.

Would you like a glass of milk?
Oh yes; thank you. Why did you offer it to me?
Because the jug is about empty, and I want fresh milk out of the next jug. I thought I'd give the old milk to you so I could get some out of the new jug.

The person could have just as easily thrown the piece of chicken away, or poured out the last of the milk from the jug on the ground. If they were entitled to that chicken or milk, it's still altruistic of them to offer it to you if you were better off at all. The fact that the act helped them in the process doesn't discredit what they have done. Why would it? They weren't compelled to give you the milk or chicken in the first place. They had many options, but they thought the food shouldn't go to waste, and so they gave it to you figuring you'd get some enjoyment out of a piece of cold chicken - even if it wasn't hot. But, really, this bit of it is just perspective. Who cares about that fluff? :a-ok:

Onto the real issue.

Quote:

He seems to actually think that people often misrepresent their motivations

First, is motivation what defines a selfish or altruistic act? Is one able to do something selfish, or altruistic, without even realizing? If so, would you be able to look at the act and its result, without considering motivation at all? Would this change how you perceive others?

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

[QUOTE=Zetherin;126460]Onto the real issue.[/QUOTE]

Someone once said, "I don't care why you do the right thing just so long as what you do is the right thing." The issue isn't why the bank offers overdraft protection to its customers. The issue is the espousal of why they do it.

You're right. The person could have poured the milk on the floor, but notice that the person wasn't deceptive. I don't mind businesses making true statements about what they are doing, but far too often, statements deviate from what they're doing and instead purport why they are doing what they are doing.

I don't mind a company saying that they are striving to satisfy the needs and wants of their target market. It's the later part when they say why they're doing that I detest.

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@fast,

fast wrote:

I don't mind a company saying that they are striving to satisfy the needs and wants of their target market. It's the later part when they say why they're doing that I detest.

You can't expect the company to say, "Yeah, we actually just wanted your money to pad our fat wallets" upon asking them why they sold you X product. There are formalities involved, and more, the respresentative must do whatever is in the best interest of the company. A representative wouldn't be employed for long if they went around telling customers things that would dissuade them from making future purchases.

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

[QUOTE=Zetherin;126489]You can't expect the company to say, "Yeah, we actually just wanted your money to pad our fat wallets" upon asking them why they sold you X product. There are formalities involved, and more, the respresentative must do whatever is in the best interest of the company. A representative wouldn't be employed for long if they went around telling customers things that would dissuade them from making future purchases.

Don't hate the playa, hate the game.[/QUOTE]
I have no such expectations. Heck, I even have low expectations. For example, I do not even expect companies to divulge whatever true reasons they have, but I do desire that they refrain from making explicit falsehoods, especially when it comes to their reasons for why they do what they do.

It's our very intention to satisfy the needs and wants of our customers.

Fast puts on his happy face.

In fact, we are satisfying the needs and wants of our customers because we care.

Fast not so happy anymore.

0 Replies

@fast,

Quote:

In fact, we are satisfying the needs and wants of our customers because we care.

Fast not so happy anymore.

But if you know they're just saying whatever for the benefit of their company reputation, why get upset? I mean, you are not close with these people, you have no emotional attachment. It would be different if a loved one was insincere like that, but we're referring to an indifferent company motto that a representative is payed to say. Nah, no need to get upset.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Zetherin;126517 wrote:

But if you know they're just saying whatever for the benefit of their company reputation, why get upset? I mean, you are not close with these people, you have no emotional attachment. It would be different if a loved one was insincere like that, but we're referring to an indifferent company motto that a representative is payed to say. Nah, no need to get upset.

My judgement is being brought into question:

Do you have so little trust as to actually think we do not want to help others? Don't you find your judgment a bit unreasonable? Have you not hastened to your biased judgment? Aren't you projecting what you know to be true about a few others onto us?

1 Reply

@fast,

fast;126559 wrote:

My judgement is being brought into question:

Do you have so little trust as to actually think we do not want to help others? Don't you find your judgment a bit unreasonable? Have you not hastened to your biased judgment? Aren't you projecting what you know to be true about a few others onto us?

Why does it even matter if the representative cares? I am not saying your judgment is wrong or unreasonable, I am wondering why this even bothers you enough to judge at all. I think you should understand that business is business, and what a company representative says is business.

Or is this about more than the espousal of why a business does what it does? Is this not just about business, but about all people; you're questioning the sincerity of all explanations of altruistic acts? I'm still not clear on that, because you tended to focus on this from a business angle.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

[QUOTE=Zetherin;126564]Why does it even matter if the representative cares? I am not saying your judgment is wrong or unreasonable, I am wondering why this even bothers you enough to judge at all. I think you should understand that business is business, and what a company representative says is business.

Or is this about more than the espousal of why a business does what it does? Is this not just about business, but about all people; you're questioning the sincerity of all explanations of altruistic acts? I'm still not clear on that, because you tended to focus on this from a business angle.[/QUOTE]
"All" is a bit too strong for my tastes, but I like the fact you added, "explanations" to what you said. I question the motives behind many acts, and I especially question them when accompanied by explanations. But, not all. I should say "many", but I'll say "most." In fact, I think I'm far more pessimistic than I should be, and that makes me think I should reexamine the logic behind what leads me to be so pessimistic, especially given the typical responses a person or business being questioned might give. Ya know; I should give them the benefit of the doubt just in case I'm being far too pessimistic.

I understand business, or at least I think I understand what you mean by business is business, and we all know (or at least should know) that behind most business transactions is a profit motive, and as far as marketing is concerned, well, I've had six years of marketing classes, so I know a whole lot more in that area than I'm conveying, and I still hate Tide commercials.

You say you're not questioning my judgment (cool), but do you think deceit is so prevalent (in regards to their explanation of their motives) as to make it reasonable to distrust what they say by default?

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I'm not really sure what my question is.

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