Secular Spirituality and Religious Naturalism

@jeeprs,

Perhaps people can do without overarching universal purpose.
It still leaves the question of values.
Is slavery wrong? or just a social convention.
Is torture wrong? or just a matter of approved techniques?
Does each individual have "natural rights" and "human dignity" or just what one can defend on one's own or those granted by governement and the powers that be?
One not only loses the sense of purpose in the universe but also the sense of "values".

1 Reply

@prothero,

prothero;90339 wrote:

Perhaps people can do without overarching universal purpose.
It still leaves the question of values.
Is slavery wrong? or just a social convention.
Is torture wrong? or just a matter of approved techniques?
Does each individual have "natural rights" and "human dignity" or just what one can defend on one's own or those granted by governement and the powers that be?
One not only loses the sense of purpose in the universe but also the sense of "values".

but i think we have intellectualized our own original instinctive values away and are trying to justify them by argument regarding ethical questions. i was thinking that the innate quality of attempting to live and avoid death is proof enough that there is a command in place to seek self interest at the level of individual organism-which is balanced by a command to seek interest of the species as a whole. it is pure logic to me that it would be counterproductive to follow the interest of the individual if it is against that of the species.

all we have to do is reason things out and the answers are quite plain. in various situations they may be slightly different, so it is partly a relative issue as well.

what i find is that the whole thing works just fine whether or not there is a creator god or purposeful intent or intelligent design or not, in theory.

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@jeeprs,

BUT - go back to your post on LACK. On how we sense the absence of reality in ourselves, and the things we will do to either fill it or cover it up. It goes much deeper than 'reasoning things out' because the reasoning itself will be manipulated by our lack. There are gross and subtle examples of this. For example, compulsive acquisition, or material greed - a very common way for people to try and fill the void at the centre of existence. Almost destroyed the economy recently, and still might. Addiction is another. In the modern world, everyone is hankering for these things: pleasure, comfort, luxury, excitement, adventure, romance. The entertainment industry is built around them. They are the baubles of an ersatz faith in a world without insight. Movie stars are the popular gods, and fame is immortality. So there is more to seeing through all of this than just thinking it through. The question is, how to live out of a system of values, a code of ethics, without dependence on beliefs and myths.

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@jeeprs,

If there is no notion of a transcendent divine then there is no rational basis for
A transcendent purpose
A transcendent value
or A transcendent truth.
It puts one squarely into relativism and deconstructive postmodernism of which atheism is a form.

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@jeeprs,

I agree but it is important how this notion is 'constructed'. The Buddhist approach is rather different to the Western. There is emphasis on gaining insight into the nature of your own thinking and feeling through insight meditation ( this is the practise called 'vipassana'). This is a definite skill that requires training to understand and put into practise. When through this practise you start to get deep insight into the mechanisms of your own thinking, then you are actually taking a 'transcendent perspective' in that you are seeing from 'beyond thought'.

In the Western world, the connection between practise and realisation was lost and the result was the speculative metaphysics of philosophical idealism. There was this vast literature about 'spirit' or 'the absolute' (e.g. Hegel, Bradley, Schopenhaur, and so on) which collapsed under its own weight, because hardly anyone had a real instinct or intution for what it really meant on a practical level. It all became meaningless verbiage and the analytical philosophers threw it all out. This is how we ended up with positivism and philosophical atheism which is pretty well where the Western tradition is today.

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@jeeprs,

jeeprs;90408 wrote:

BUT - go back to your post on LACK. On how we sense the absence of reality in ourselves, and the things we will do to either fill it or cover it up. It goes much deeper than 'reasoning things out' because the reasoning itself will be manipulated by our lack. There are gross and subtle examples of this. For example, compulsive acquisition, or material greed - a very common way for people to try and fill the void at the centre of existence. Almost destroyed the economy recently, and still might. Addiction is another. In the modern world, everyone is hankering for these things: pleasure, comfort, luxury, excitement, adventure, romance. The entertainment industry is built around them. They are the baubles of an ersatz faith in a world without insight. Movie stars are the popular gods, and fame is immortality. So there is more to seeing through all of this than just thinking it through. The question is, how to live out of a system of values, a code of ethics, without dependence on beliefs and myths.

what i was most likely referring to was that the sense of lack stems from the illusion that we are separate selves rather than a unified being. if we realized experientially that we are a unified being, there would be no sense of lack. at that point we should be able to get past all the devices such as addiction, intellectualization, and reach the pure basic instinct instilled in us that would point the way to a viable system of ethics and values. just a guess, of course...

but no, i didnt mean thinking it through was the way out-not until our sense of reason is untainted. i made that post very confusing, sorry...i tend to confuse thinking with reasoning-thinking to me is intellectualizing or analyzing while reason should be automatic-you know, conclusions reached on the basis of that objective logic that is out there somewhere...

remember i had this theory that our basic instinct was logical but we think too much and cant distinguish it any more...

---------- Post added 09-16-2009 at 03:56 AM ----------

prothero;90414 wrote:

If there is no notion of a transcendent divine then there is no rational basis for
A transcendent purpose
A transcendent value
or A transcendent truth.
It puts one squarely into relativism and deconstructive postmodernism of which atheism is a form.

but for some reason i do seem to have a notion of a transcendent divine-also a transcendent truth...value i am not sure how you mean that. but oddly enough i dont find there being a transcendent purpose. purpose belongs to this world, the physical...what purpose can there possibly be to a transcendent, divine and absolute state of being?

i guess it's an odd outlook...but then again i am not a very happy person, so i might certainly be missing something essential here. any help will be appreciated...

1 Reply

@salima,

[QUOTE=salima;90422]remember i had this theory that our basic instinct was logical but we think too much and cant distinguish it any more... ...[/QUOTE]

It sounds like a theory of intuitive knowledge which can be recovered by meditation or introspection. Those leaning east in their theological inclinations should like it. There are things I think we know that are not the result of empiricism (direct experience) or the result of direct sensory experience (the pan sensationalist theory of knowledge). Some refer to some aspects of such "knowledge" as hard core common sense or the things one presupposes in the process of living.

[QUOTE=salima;90422]but for some reason i do seem to have a notion of a transcendent divine-also a transcendent truth...value i am not sure how you mean that. but oddly enough i dont find there being a transcendent purpose. purpose belongs to this world, the physical...what purpose can there possibly be to a transcendent, divine and absolute state of being? ...[/QUOTE]In the first instance I think the divine changes and experiences. The divine is the exemplification of metaphysical principle not its sole exception. Tillich the divine is "the ground of all being", "the essence of existence". It is "god" that creates "possibility, god's primordial nature". The world is possibility becoming actuality under divine influence and persuasion not under divine coercion. The divine is not a tyrant or a Caesar. Becoming (process) not being (matter or substance) is the primary ontology. God is in relationship to the world, "the fellow traveler who suffers with and struggles for his creation". The ultimate purpose is precisely creativity (the creation of value) (possibility becoming actuality) through process. Thus the universe tends to order, complexity, life, mind, aesthetics and values in a never ending process of creative advance. Suffering and freedom are unavoidable in a meaningful and creative world.

[QUOTE=salima;90422]i guess it's an odd outlook...but then again i am not a very happy person, so i might certainly be missing something essential here. any help will be appreciated...[/QUOTE]
When you look at the world (universe) What do you see?

The deterministic mechanistic machine of materialistic determinism? The mechanic?
Or
A universe which is alive, enchanted, mysterious, interconnected and the source of endless novelty and creativity. (more like something alive than a machine?)

Which view point do you choose? Which will bring you greater happiness?

1 Reply

@prothero,

prothero;90432 wrote:

It sounds like a theory of intuitive knowledge which can be recovered by meditation or introspection. Those leaning east in their theological inclinations should like it. There are things I think we know that are not the result of empiricism (direct experience) or the result of direct sensory experience (the pan sensationalist theory of knowledge). Some refer to some aspects of such "knowledge" as hard core common sense or the things one presupposes in the process of living.

In the first instance I think the divine changes and experiences. The divine is the exemplification of metaphysical principle not its sole exception. Tillich the divine is "the ground of all being", "the essence of existence". It is "god" that creates "possibility, god's primordial nature". The world is possibility becoming actuality under divine influence and persuasion not under divine coercion. The divine is not a tyrant or a Caesar. Becoming (process) not being (matter or substance) is the primary ontology. God is in relationship to the world, "the fellow traveler who suffers with and struggles for his creation". The ultimate purpose is precisely creativity (the creation of value) (possibility becoming actuality) through process. Thus the universe tends to order, complexity, life, mind, aesthetics and values in a never ending process of creative advance. Suffering and freedom are unavoidable in a meaningful and creative world.

When you look at the world (universe) What do you see?

The deterministic mechanistic machine of materialistic determinism? The mechanic?
Or
A universe which is alive, enchanted, mysterious, interconnected and the source of endless novelty and creativity. (more like something alive than a machine?)

Which view point do you choose? Which will bring you greater happiness?

i have the second viewpoint, and experiential knowledge of it, so it is a firm conviction. i know all this but something prevents me from actually partaking in it when i am in it...there is still something that is in my way of enjoyment or fulfillment which i cant identify. dont know where to go to track it down...just have to keep working on it i guess. it goes away when i watch the chipmunks...maybe i could use a lobotomy or something...

1 Reply

@salima,

salima;90520 wrote:

i have the second viewpoint, and experiential knowledge of it, so it is a firm conviction. i know all this but something prevents me from actually partaking in it when i am in it...there is still something that is in my way of enjoyment or fulfillment which i cant identify. dont know where to go to track it down...just have to keep working on it i guess. it goes away when i watch the chipmunks...maybe i could use a lobotomy or something...

All I can suggest is everytime you look out at the world see it as a living experiencing enchanted unity (not as a innert insensate machine). It cheers me up everytime I stop and think about it.

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@jeeprs,

that sense of alienation is what this idea of 'secular spirituality' is trying to address. The point is, one needs to 'enact' the relationship with the sacred. The way I have learned to do this is through meditation. This is the positive side of ritual behaviour - because you are interacting on a level beyond that of just thinking about it.

I am sure there are other ways as well though. Whatever they are, though, they have to engage your whole being. Maybe this is the original meaning of 'worship' after all. It is just that it has become ritualised and automated and we forget what it stands for. Go back to the source and re-invent it.

1 Reply

@jeeprs,

jeeprs;90723 wrote:

that sense of alienation is what this idea of 'secular spirituality' is trying to address. The point is, one needs to 'enact' the relationship with the sacred. The way I have learned to do this is through meditation. This is the positive side of ritual behaviour - because you are interacting on a level beyond that of just thinking about it.

I am sure there are other ways as well though. Whatever they are, though, they have to engage your whole being. Maybe this is the original meaning of 'worship' after all. It is just that it has become ritualised and automated and we forget what it stands for. Go back to the source and re-invent it.

In modern jewish and liberal or progressive Christian thought the story of the garden (original sin) is not about sex; it is about alienation or separation from God. The tree of knowledge (science and materialism when worshiped) separate you from the tree of life (spirit).
For existentialists alienation and separation are precisely the human condition.

In any event all religions and all religous practices at their core can be seen as efforts to restablish connection with the divine, the sacred, the numinous, with the spirit of the universe from which we arose and of which we are still a part. To regain the ancient wisdom about the universe as spirit as well as matter.

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@jeeprs,

Quote:

In any event all religions and all religous practices at their core can be seen as efforts to restablish connection with the divine, the sacred, the numinous, with the spirit of the universe from which we arose and of which we are still a part. To regain the ancient wisdom about the universe as spirit as well as matter.

Very good thougts.......
Is the matter trying to become the spirit?....... Is this what we 'regain'?
Is this what salima is missing....... is this that slips away when we think we are about to grasp it i.e. the knowledge. What is the connect? What is the link between us and the universe?

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@jeeprs,

Well mine was, and is, through 'contemporary Eastern philosophy and neo-Buddhist teachings'. For example, Krishnamurti, Vipassana and Zen meditation and related literature. But formal regular sitting meditation, known in the tradition as zazen or dhyana, is essential in my view - otherwise it is just internal chatter. Realization needs to be actualized - there is real knowledge there and unless you learn the skill and realize the fruits of it, it is just empty chatter (of which the world has plenty already).

This practise is still is within the realm of 'secular spirituality' however as it does not rely on commitment to a supernatural creed or 'religious belief' in the sense it is understood in the Christian West. But it does require an observation of the principles of practise.

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@jeeprs,

I agree. Sitting meditation is essential to calm your mind and your body. But whats that about the spirit of the universe. If you could explain, how is that connected to the spirit within us?

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@jeeprs,

I don't tend to use the word 'spirit' much, I prefer to think of a universal intelligence. This is not like a presiding father figure directing affairs in the universe but the fundamental intelligence that is, if you like, embedded in the fabric of the Universe itself (while also being beyond all existence).

The human being is an expression of that intelligence and it can be realised within oneself. You can't know it directly because you are it - as the Hindu teaching says, 'tat tvam asi' - 'thou art that'. The point of meditative awareness is to realize your unity or oneness with that

So sitting meditation is not just a matter of calming, although it does that. It generates intuitive insight into your true nature - that is the key point. That insight in itself is transformative - it changes the way you are and the way you see the world.

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