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Fri 6 Mar, 2009 11:01 am
So, here's the deal.
This is how I see society: not all people are equal. We are equal in our essence. But our qualities differ. There are many kinds of intelligence. It's an over simplification to think that some people have MORE intelligence or less. Some have more creative intelligence and some have more practical intelligence. Still, people have different levels of maturity, and this is somewhat more linear in my view. There are toddlers, kids and adolescents and adults, regardless the biologycal age.
After much self-scrutiny, I find myself to be an adolescent on my way to becoming an adult. I take my personal growth extremely seriously. This is the reason I have to wake up every morning: becoming a wiser and more mature human being.
Social problem. I have problems dealing with people I perceive to be in the lesser stages of development. For example, early teenagers or toddlers, well I can't even talk to toddlers. I am talking about personal maturity here, maturity of character and spirit.
What happens is as it follows: first of all, a sense of being misunderstood. I find "simple" people, basic and loud, not able of complex abstract thinking, sometimes even uninterested in philosophy and everything that is not practical and functional, labelling it as useless - I find them to often have have black-and-white ideas of how things should be, and a fixation for quick judgement and thinking they're superior. Paradoxal but this is what I've found. The more basic the person, the less aware he or she is that a lot people around him are capable of more complex thinking and interpretation. Of course, such a person can't even conceive such a thinking. What surprises me regularly is the arrogance, almost violence, of the primitive individual in thinking he or she is perfect and the superiorly-thinking person is just some sort of weirdo. Many times I have encountered this situation of zero compassion. Although I struggle to feel compassionate towards who hates me - and you bet this is sometimes a difficult task - the person who hates me for no reason just hates me and believes he's right in doing so - he believes I am WRONG because he just can't get me. So I must be wrong, he doesn't even think that he could be inaccurate. Of course, if he were to do so more often, he would have a more mature and open personality.
I have troubles in tolerating the carelessness a lot of people seem to be leading their lives with and the unawareness of the damage they do to the world and the people around them. This is one of the greatest injustices of the world, of course I have troubles with it.
So if I'm writing this is because yesterday I went to a thai restaurant and had a brief conversation with the host about what I wanted to eat and she just didn't understand my language. By that I mean, she perfectly spoke english, but she couldn't understand why I wasn't talking in some sort of very, very low class way. I do not speak in a very high language. This is the problem. She is not used to a normal speaking. She accepts as normal, I suppose, a very primitive language and way of presenting oneself to the other. Basic, primitive, loud. I can't explain otherwise why she was looking at me in that highly irrespectful way as I was talking, like she wasn't understanding why, how come, why I was so "complicated". I wasn't complicated. I was just more thoughtful and deep than most people she knows.
Note: I look perfectly normal.
So here we go with the social problem. Some mass commercial movies don't have a normal language, it's absurdly low, most teenagers I know don't talk normal, they talk like ghetto ignorants. Still, they think their ways are normal and who isn't like them is crazy or something.
You obviously understand how difficult it is to cope with a society like this. And some say this is the way the world is going, wich is sort of depressive. But then, you realize there are a lot of normal people too. They talk your language, they can even be more intelligent than you are - they are open, respectful and unjudgemental.
But still, most of the people I meet in the streets, in restaurants, in common places, and I relate to somehow, don't seem to be this kind. So what is one to do? I admit I am frustrated and I've been thinking of isolating myself - actually did so. Probably not the most courageous option, but still. What was I to do? I was getting angry at every word. Every word they said was low-class, ignorant, unaware of the way the world works, unrespectful of my differences. It's like basic people don't want to give me the right to be different, even if that is no better or worse. But maybe they think different = worse. And they don't think twice before becoming hostile and offensive. So that is why this is a problem to me: I have been humiliated many times by kids, teenagers I was giving school lessons to, and stupid narrow-minded adults who just wanted to put me down with great verbal violence, just because I wasn't the mediocre person they certainly are. I used to think there was something wrong with me, but now I really think there's something wrong with them. And there is no way I can change this, so it's a mess. It's pain, I must admit. I still have to find a more solid way to cope with this, as I seem to be very sensitive even and especially to this people. Maybe I have too big a sense of justice, I don't know.
I've seen this in small and big places alike. It doesn't seem to be a peculiarity of very small and provincial places.
Of course, I might be doing some mistake in the way I see things, and that's why I'm posting this, so you can give me some hints. I am open to re-evaluation. Just know that I tried, tried to deal with most people but most times I failed, but I've also been successful in connecting to less violent individuals, who are at least open to exchange, not defensive every single fuckin' second. So for now, I've decided to be a snob and relate only to this kind of people if I find them. Otherwise better being alone. What Gandhi, Buddha or Jesus used to do in such a situation, I'm not sure.
I can also relate to more ignorant types and actually have an interesting exchange, but only if the first ten huge walls of defensiveness are down. Is it worth it? If they fell down, it's only by chance. I did not try, I would do that only if I was desperately in love for someone.
You're more than welcome to give your thoughts on this, but please don't judge me too harshly and quickly as a snob or egocentric or anything else (I'm used to that). If I'm so, I obviously have my reasons and I don't expect to be absolutely right. That's why I'm opening up, to change my behaviour and my views.
@duckotaco,
Do you think that your difficulty tolerating certain people might be a statement about your own stage of maturity and development?
@duckotaco,
I do, but I'm sure the Buddha himself has been there. Plus, this doesn't mean that my stage is inferior to the people I have problems with.
Actually, I think it's more a statement of the opposite. An eighteen years old boy doesn't usually hang out with a guy of twelve. He's irritated by them, because they're behind him.
@duckotaco,
Inferiority / superiority is a difficult judgement to separate from moralizing.
People hang out with those they best relate to, not because of relative irritation.
@Aedes,
I hope that I am not intruding on the thread. I just wanted to offer my experience in the same battle with you.
It started in high school I realized that I was not of the same mind state as the rest of my peers. I was an athletic half black half white in an urban school. I had been raised in the country for all of my childhood. So all of this was a shock. Socially I was expected to be this rough and tough gangster.
The use of any word that had more than two syllables was shunned upon and could lead to a bad day in the hospital. I began to think that I was less than everyone because I would rather read a book or try a science experiment rather than interact with them. Slowly I began trying to relate to the masses. I started dressing like them eating like them talking like them. And slowly lost myself. When I realized that they were inadvertently controlling my life.
I switched up and began thinking that I was better than they were trying to justify to myself that I was. The thing that helped me out was one day on the way home from school I met a man that lived under the bridge by my house. The other kids would make fun of him and then ask him to buy us beer. I was by myself at this time so there was no other influences to steer me into an ignorant state. I bought both of us a beer and asked him. "why do you take all of this criticism and still help us buy beer. I had already generated a thought about him. And figured that he would say "cause I wanted a drink", You know because he is a bum and all. He replied if I wouldn't buy you guys the beer I wouldn't get the chance to teach you. baffled by his response I chuckled and quoted my IQ to him. The asked what could you teach me you are no were near my intelligence.
He shook his head and said it is funny that you are so smart you can look at the way I talk, and the way that I dress, and where I live. And know everything I have gone through in the last 45 years. If you are that smart why are you here you should be in the news as some great guru or somethin.
My pride was to heavy at that point to laugh at him any more. From time to time I would go and have a beer with the bum from bascom bridge and chat with him. I came to find out that he used to be a high class lawyer in New York until he gave it all up to live a free life. After his family died he had no reason for everything so he just sits and talks and helps the occasional ghetto kid see life in a different way.
I guess that my point would be that no matter how ignorant they my seem or under classed they might act. The intelligent one would be able to find the strong points of any encounter. To shelter yourself just hurts you by no learning how to steer those into a different place that is more suitable for all. ]
Hope this helps if not it helped me and maybe someone else.
sometimes you have to play a character to others.
@duckotaco,
Uhm. I'm thinking. I'd never think I'd be superior to a bum, to be clear. I know he has a lot to teach me. But I know the ghetto kids are just convinced of something they're not. What chance did they have to look inside and mature? C'mon. And this is the people I'm scared of. The ghetto kids. Not the king. Not the bums. The ghetto kids and the vast majority of people who only consume, never create, never think about what they do. They just don't seem to me to have enough understanding, reason, balance, tranquillity - Goethe said that, and he's right. They are fucked up in their head, they only think of feeding their ego. Without a style. Who doesn't agree well, is probably that kind of people! Because I trust also Buddha would agree with me (Buddha, in my opinion, just knows better than most).
So as Aedes say, people hang out with people they relate to. Well know that I've found very little people I relate to, and I tend to be a loner although I would love to have more contact with people. I talk and relate to people every day but it's just empty and unsignificant, and they always disappoint me. Maybe they're not perfect too, what about that? Maybe they are prone to disappointing, and maybe it's their problem too. So I don't believe it's only my responsability. I'm sure there are people I can relate to and I'll keep trying to find them. But for now, I am dodging bullets: people are not all excellent, I don't believe that. A lot of people are even evil, I believe that. Moral or not that's they way I see it. I believe I am good, and I don't see how this is arrogant. It's just normal, balanced self confidence.
Well, some people are there just to make you lose it. I'm not gonna lose it, ever, ever, ever. It's the only right thing to do. But it's really a struggle, people make it very hard. People are not so good, c'mon. People are not all brilliant and smart and beautiful and deserveful of compliments. Some are just plain *******s and it should be stated and known. Sorry guys but today something happened to me that confirmed how stupid people can be.
My search for people worth my company - because I believe there are some who are and some who are not, and I'm the only one who can make the difference - continues.
@duckotaco,
There is a fine line between self-confidence and narcissism and from your comments you look to be leaning towards the latter, no offense intended. You seem intelligent and that is obviously not a bad thing but I think you might be underestimating the 'ghetto kids'. I say learn what you can, when you can, and from from whoever you can. Also feeling disconnect like you mentioned is a common symptom in some personality disorders. I am in no way trying to diagnose you or offend you I just think you need to learn a bit of humility and empathy so you can understand where other people are coming from...I think you'll be suprised and probably pleased once you see that the majority of people are intelligent on many different levels. Also about the different types of intelligence, I completely agree. Does this make your form of intelligence more important than anyone elses though? There is actually a theory of
multiple intelligences, and I think that if you go read up on it and apply what you learn into your observations of people around you it would be beneficial and help you to bridge the gap you feel.
@duckotaco,
I do not believe that all people are good by any means. I was merely stating that sometimes you find good in some of the worst places. And for give me if I had implied that you where arrogant. That was not my intention. Evil exist in everyone no matter who it is. And you can always find something wrong with people if you look for it.
A lot of the "ghetto" kids that I met were the way that they are because of the environment that they were in. They were thought to except what was given to them. And that anyone trying to change you is trying to take advantage of you. There is a long study on the social manipulation of early slaves that tells of the methods used to make them suppress themselves. Unfortunately I only had a glimpse at the writings so I can not reference. Although from living amongst it I can tell of my experiences. I would ask people why they didn't just leave or why they would not change there points of view. I always got the rambling jibber. Then realized that they have never seen another point of view other than where the were. So there was no chance for development. And the few that had mad it to a different chain of thought hardly returned, or were ridicule and threatened.
I try to relate with just about everyone. There are those idiots that are just going to be idiots. So I just let them slam into the wall and move on. be couscous but not afraid. Don't let them put you into solitude then you miss out and they rule.
Better to die fighting than live afraid..
@duckotaco,
In allowing their perception to alter your state they have won the game. I can understand that it hurts, I to have felt the scorn of a woman. If you allow them to judge you tag you ad place you than that is what you will be. As for being a looser because you don't drive a type of car or you don't dress with a certain brand is ludicrous. Sometimes you have to look at what you are portraying as the cause and alter that to get the results that you wish. After my ghetto experience I decided to take a walk and see the world from the outside. When I say walk I mean from Mexico to Canada. I did not have any of the socially acceptable luxuries that one would be expected to have. Just a backpack crossbow change of clothes and an open mind. I had lost my front tooth in an accident and had not cut my hair in years. I looked like a hippie kid begging for food. I refused to allow others perceptions of me be true. I was still able to have good looking girls and intelligent ones as well.
It all comes down to you. If you allow yourself to feel a certain way than that is the way that you will feel. Change your perception of yourself and everyone else will follow.
Most women are cruel be nature. You will never be able to please them all so the ones that think the do not drop the same feces as everyone else just leave to be dilutional. I can bet that there was a nice girl in that place that noticed you where tryig to be nice and thought it was sweet. And is probably riddicleign those girls for being shollow.
When you get punch it is only in one eye. If you close the second one it is your fault for not lookin gwhen you get hit again. Protect yourself by training to compete against your opponants. Don't let them win by default.
@duckotaco,
Good lessons man, good lessons. Life is what you make it.
As for women being cruel, well, that was certainly the case. Did they do that because I didn't give them ANY attention? Because that is the only harassing thing I could have done. I seriously have never seen them before. But I'm also in a place where people have so little curiosity of the outside world, they don't look at anybody. If you ask me it's a sad way of living. So I can't really say if I accidentally LOOKED at them and they thought that was harrassment (...) or the first thing I said. In any case yeah, cruel is the right word. Some women are never happy, they say any man is not really right, only they are perfect. This kind of woman in my opinion sucks **** as they're plain pretentious. I don't think it's much fun to do anything with them that is not sex. And that is also not guaranteed...
@duckotaco,
I think I understand a bit more how you feel now. It does hurt when people do things to you and it is ignorant and stupid of them to do it. The main thing is that you can't control what life gives you but you can control what you do with it. Don't let them affect you or your feelings towards others that didn't have anything to do with it. If you dwell on what happened that only exacerbates the affect of what happened. What I would suggest is talking to someone in your family about what you're feeling right now because if you bottle it up it can only get worse and feelings like these have a way of feeding themselves.
I speak out of similar experiences in my life and I didn't ever talk to anybody and I'm paying the price now. So trust me, there IS good in society and the people that do things like they did are actually the minority but since you still feel so hurt you are looking at everything through a filter so all you can see is bad. I hope you really do talk to someone about this because you are a smart guy obviously and you have great potential...don't let what a few have done affect the entire course of your life in this manner.
thysin
@duckotaco,
Thanks Thysin. You're right I shouldn't make this take too much of myself. I talk to my family often and I write so I don't keep things bottled up. This will relate to this forum a lot: there is some metaphysical way by wich bad or good events have a tendency to perpetrate themselves. That is, you create your own good or bad luck. Or at least I hope so, because my luck lately has been lacking. In any case, there is some way to see things...when you're depressed you see things blacker than they are...viceversa if you're in a good mood...I am in decent mood now and that event with the two girls, I almost find entertaining...not big deal at all. At first I thought I would never look at a woman again. Instead, I'm sort of encouraged of doing it again, just in other ways and situations...
I did this in the past several times...turning events around at my advantage...it's been one of the things most fun in life until now...it allowed me to erase negativity and get more positive energy back instead...there is a basic attitude and decision you do with your mind...and then everything changes, from the way you walk to the way you relate to people...and everything works much differently...it's the ultimate destiny maker.
Thysin, I trust there is good in society.
@duckotaco,
As long as you understand what you feel and why you feel it nothing will ever stop you or even slow you down. You seem to understand yourself or at least are coming to understand yourself which is more than most people can ever claim. I was going to say good luck but I think I'll just say have fun instead
peace,
thysin
@duckotaco,
Duckotaco,
After reading most of this thread, I get the impression most of what you've said would be better off in your blog.
Do you have any specific social questions you'd like to ask?
@savagemonk,
A couple of thoughts on all this, if I might:
I realized quite early that I was very different in grade and high school. In my case, it was a morbid sensitivity that's both plagued and blessed me for as long as I can remember. In any case, it didn't take long for me to gravitate towards just a few friends and my own interests. I've thus far lived a long and satisfying life doing just this...
one doesn't have to 'fit in'. Move around, be alone now and then, it's not as dysfunctional as one might think.
As far as this narcissistic element goes: I wouldn't worry too much about this. Yea, there might be some ego going on, but so what. As long as you don't become fixated or take it too far, a little self-esteem is a healthy thing.
And yea, another relief-valve is to congregate in places like our happy home here on the
Forum, where everyone's welcome and thinking is a good thing.
Cheers
@duckotaco,
Hi Kethil, thanks, well a guy like Zetherin isn't making me feel so home, he's basically telling me this isn't the kind of things he wants to read in the forum, like he's the owner or something, while I don't see any mod badge! Surprising at least. As it wasn't enough he sent me a private message telling me I should get checked because from my posts he senses a serious mental illness going on.
Right.
As for narcissism (wich is not SO serious, I meet a lot of narcissists all the time): I think I only tend to be arrogant, intellectual arrogance like a lot of people have, narcissism is something completely different. Everybody has ego so I don't see anything surprising in this. I'm not going to think I'm wrong. I think I am more healthy than a lot of people. Why should I trick myself into thinking that people are right and I'm wrong? People are wrong all the time! There's no doubt about that! If you disagree it's probably because you're people! Therefore wrong! Most people are not amazing. Few individuals are. Most people are not worth great consideration. I'm not saying one should hate them. I'm saying they're not great and one shouldn't think they're a standard or something. They're not. Not to me. Few eminent individuals are a standard, and other people are obviously inferior to them in many ways. That's it! I don't understand why the mass of people, who is not very smart, should be respected so much. I don't respect them, period! I am better than some people on many levels! I must be aware of that, to have success of life. I can't believe the idiocy that people are as good as I am. And this is not narcissism, this is arrogance. But not really. I'm just saying that to make you happy I self-insult. It's a self-deprecating society, not a right and functional one. Who thinks this society works as it should? Do me a favour. There are some who are behind me and some who are over me.
When I say "I'm good" what the **** is wrong with that? Should I say I suck? Is this healthy? I'm good period! I know my qualities! And I'm not ashamed to say it! You don't even know me, so! You can never know how good I am. I know, and other people know. Period. This accusation of narcissism is unfounded. I'm just different and different means BETTER to me, by default. Being all the same like little soldiers like most people doesn't mean better, not to me, it doesn't appeal my eye, it's not good-looking. I'm sorry for the crowd who wants to think they're good looking, it's just not my taste, and I trust my taste above all others. That's all I'm saying. I can tolerate people but I don't find them EXCELLENT, I think most things they do or say are not CORRECT, they have the illusion it is. If my mum says something, it means it's wrong. Or inaccurate. Because she's not God. Same for me. Nobody owns the truth, and I think people who accuses me of too much ego or mental problems are just plain arrogant because they think they know the truth. Duh, OF COURSE you don't own the truth! That's the only thing you should be sure of! Or maybe this hurts your egos too much?
You open up and of course people attack you and think you're crazy...like I care. I only care about me and my development. That's the right way to live. Opinions are wrong by default. I am totally careless - and cool like that. I can self-celebrate as much as I want, you don't have to like it. I am independent from people lioking me. Just 'cause I have a healthy self-esteem. Maybe it's too much, so what? It's gonna change, I'm fluid, I'm a human being. "You have too much self-esteem", right, who are you to say that? Ridiculous. Human judgements are ridiculous. Humans should not judge. Ever.
I am absolutely indifferent to Zetherin's evil, unjustified attack. Now he'll say that he wanted to help me, I don't believe him. He just wanted to put me down (maybe I know that while he doesn't...who tells you that he's self-aware, I'm actually sure he's not) and he's so not going to do that. Ah, when you face a stronger opponent (Zetherin, I'm stronger than you. People's gonna laugh but I'm stronger anyway. That's what matters.)
I will be cocky when I decide to be. I own my cockiness. That's some power. Do you have it?
@duckotaco,
So my conclusion until now, reading all the post, is that there are undeveloped people in the world, that have less maturity than me and you, and they should be ignored because we have nothing to share with them - by my experience, prolonged contact with them is dangerous - they have their reasons, they're not evil, they're not out to get you, but still, I must not relate with them! As a university student doesn't relate to elementary school kids thinking they're his same level! They're not! Maybe they will be! It's ridiculous to think people are all of the same level. Some people are BETTER. More evolved. Wiser. Just, better.
Buddha said not to have friends that are not your same level. So I can say that some people are not at my level. If you think this is cockiness well I think you're cocky to dare thinking that, because there's no reason why I couldn't be better than you, too (it's not that I have a fixation for that...it's just that I care about the truth, good or bad...and sometimes the truth makes me a winner, of course it can, as much as the opposite)...if I see a master, somebody who teaches me about life, I recognize it and I feel humble before him. Narcissism my ****. Awareness for the win. And neutrality. I don't feel worse, or better than anybody, my issue here is with underdeveloped people who think they're better - I cannot relate with them. Seems like a contradiction, you can't really tell if I think I'm better or equal - I think both. I am equal and at the same time superior in some aspects of a person who is less mature than me.
I will respect them, I will tolerate them, I'll try to see the good in them, but I will not associate, hang out, date them. Of course, in general. That is the answer to my original question, as a couple of people said.
This thing that self-assurance is mistaken for narcissism should end.
@duckotaco,
We're covering a lot of ground here, so it's probably not a good idea to try and solve all things at once. So let's just take the related attributes: ego, arrogance and narcissism. Now, everyone is going to tell you different things; your experience is going to give you mixed signals and most people who dole out advice are like bait-and-switch shops (you want one thing and you get something else pushed on you). So here's some general advice that you can take or leave:
- One should have healthy self-esteem. For some this is called ego (to express their disapproval) but the label doesn't much matter. What matters is how you treat others: that you're respectful, you honestly listen to them and don't be pushy or judgmental. The hard part about this is when you think you're right; state your case, but understand you are flawed - just like the rest of us. There's no dishonor in backing off even if you think you're right to preserve relationships. Sure, there's a time to stand your ground; but this scenario isn't it.
- Love yourself, respect yourself and don't pay TOO much attention to the opinions of others, except for those few you trust. You learn very little about your effect on others except by interacting; which, in my humble opinion is what it's all about.
- Don't fall into the trap of thinking that vocabulary is a measure of intelligence; it's not. Some of the brightest people I know couldn't form a 12th grade-level sentence if their life depended on it. No matter how 'dumb' or 'smart' someone appears, give 'em the benefit of the doubt and treat them with respect.
- None of us are going to be approved-of, loved or extolled like we'd want (at least not until you get to the age where perspective starts to form - at which time people don't change, you do). None of us always feels loved all the time. This is OK - and when you start feeling alone and shunned, go find someone to get close to. Affection and attention are mirror-gifts (to get you need to give). This is particularly true of younger folks.
- 'Maturity' is a bad word; since (as you pointed out) it can mean many things. Try not to place people on a 'scale' - doing so leads to judgmentalism which leads to blaming which leads to misery (both for yourself and those around you). Besides, chances are some of the folks you see as immature aren't. Never assume you know the minds of others.
To be fascinated with those parts of yourself you're proud of is OK; but watch that trap. This will take some time; and you'll quickly find out (if you haven't already) that respect and honest-understanding can't be faked. People will see right through you. Regardless, if you want to be a loner that's ok (I am) and if you don't,
it's up to you to befriend (not the other way around).
I'll shut up now... hope some of this helps.
@duckotaco,
No, don't shut up, stay.
Khethil, as I tried to say, I've been hurt by people. A lot of people had good esteem of me, sometimes I've found it even excessive. Most people would tell me that I'm a good guy with great potential.
What do I do when I meet those people who do not care about being good and with potential? They don't care, they sometimes don't want to see me this way, for many reasons - racial, self-protection, arrogance, envy, and plain not caring or being dumb.
I obviously will never take seriously the idea, although sometimes it's a struggle (I don't have SUCH self-esteem), that I might NOT be a good guy with potential. I've been starting thinking this for some time and I assure you that apart from not being true according to me and most people, I create a stupid reality around me that wastes all my potential and good in life. That is why a person as such as a thought that wants to put me down is THE enemy.
You tell me: this people existed and left a scar in my heart. These people are AROUND. That is why I'm talking about selecting. I MUST make some judgement - by that I mean, if somebody tries to put me down - happens about twice a week - you tell me, what should I do? I listen. I gave my answer: I just move on but I do not befriend him. Am I crazy to befriend who puts me down because he or she is envious? He or she has no reason to wish for my good. Of course I wouldn't behave as he does, but he still does. This is what I call evil behaviour and you can't tell him to think it's good. 'Cause it's not, obviously. And it must be counteracted with strength and good. And by staying away from these people, intelligent or dumb that they are, and whatever their vocabulary. These I was suggesting were just relative SIGNS of somebody not worth my attention in my radar. of course one can have bad vocabulary and be a good friend.
"Don't care about people" my mum used to say. Stays true. Sorry, you tell me if I'm wrong.
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