Do any atheists/agnostics want to believe?

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Most of the atheists/agnostics I have encountered seem content, or at least satisfied, or if you insist, we can say not dissatisfied, with the position of disbelief they have selected. Some even state that religion is primitive falsehood that we as humanity need to overcome in order to improve the condition of the world, and many have suggested they would force theists to give up their beliefs (if it were possible, but at least they'd ban public expression of religion). The morality and consequences of banning religion might be interesting to explore, but perhaps we should save that for another thread.

My question is are there any agnostics/atheists out there who, while finding it unlikely that God or any sort of higher power exists, find that probability undesirable and would rather that a higher power did exist?

In my case, I would consider myself an agnostic with atheistic tendencies. However, I do not necessarily find it pleasant that God may not exist, and that we truly may be alone in the universe. Given my overall personality, I believe that I should be a spiritual person, but somehow I've become lost along the way and can no longer bring myself to believe. Like many agnostics/atheists, I was a believer (in my case, Christian) for an extended period of time.

Are people in my predicament simply people who are not strong enough to accept the reality that we are alone and responsible for our own destinies rather than trying to find comfort in a higher power who watches over us and ensures our immortality? Or are we people who so much want to have power over our own lives that we reject God and the responsibility that comes with believing in him? Or are we something else entirely?

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@WithoutReason,

Interesting subject, i agree atheists in general appear happy with their conclusions , i as an agnostic can never be sure of my own feelings on the subject.Im not sure if i need to know we are not alone,its possibly the desert island syndrome. I am more open to persuasion than most atheists , i dont know if thats good or bad.

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@WithoutReason,

Outstanding question, Thank you.

I'll apologize now for the length of this post, but I think it important to share the genesis for our particular orientations as humbly and honestly as possible. This is important: I believe our concept of self as a 'being' lies at the foundation of almost everything else we adhere; most-certainly at the basis of our theology. Built on top of this self-concept is nearly every philosophical view we hold; turn this "dial of theology" but just a smidge and the entire kaleidoscope of philosophical thought changes vastly; subtley in some ways, but widely nonetheless.

WithoutReason wrote:

My question is are there any agnostics/atheists out there who, while finding it unlikely that God or any sort of higher power exists, find that probability undesirable and would rather that a higher power did exist?

Well, to start out, I'll state that I'm neither glad nor sad, overall, that I'm an atheist; it's just one part of who I am. In any case, your question asks for a simple answer and I don't think there is one. If you put a gun to my head and bade me answer simply, I'd have to say "Yes, I wish I did". But I think it's more complicated than that.[INDENT]For Me and My own Emotional Happiness: Absent of Other Considerations: Absolutely, unequivicably, wholeheartedly and without reservation, Yes, I wish I believed! But I fear that many atheists haven't pondered this through to it's logical permutation (perhaps they have, this being only my perception). But what I believe is that there is a 'private pain' within each considered soul that yearns for something more (both in terms of "what there is" as well as an externally-imposed, quasi-objective 'meaning'). This is the part of me that to the question: "Is this all that I am?" answers, "Yes it is; accept it and through it be the best you can".
[/INDENT][INDENT]For my Intellect: Without any shadow of a doubt, "No, I'm very glad I don't believe". Now, I have to be careful here, because this particular view is exclusively 'me'. I'd not impose this judgement upon others since its complexity and diversity are endemic to the mind who's thinking it. I value those few "things" that I can say "I know" and believe the number of such tidbits to be few and far inbetween. For those things I think I DO know, out of critical thinking, they are just so because I have evidence and/or reason to account for them; I see no evidence or reason that leads me to this place, at all. What's more, I believe the intellect that admits its gaps in knowledge is better postured to seek such answers. Further, I believe (and could almost say "I know) that any human's best condition is that which accepts their condition; then proceeding from there and tries to understand it. My intellect tells me that we are unique on this planet - to be sure - but are still, at our core, just another inhabitant with a mental 'uniqueness' that's enabled our continued existence.
[/INDENT][INDENT]For My Self Respect: No, because I need to be true to what I can reasonably believe. If I had a basis; any basis that I saw as valid, I'd be equally dishonest to try and assert otherwise. "And above all else, to thine ownself be true"; I may not succeed at this bidding, but falsely "trying" to believe (or saying I do, when I don't) is self depricating.
[/INDENT]As far as agnosticism goes; to me this is a funny animal. To say I am "without knowledge" strikes me as a "no-duh"; I believe virtually all of us are without knowledge. But theism/atheism speaks not one bit to knowledge, it simply asks "do one believe?". And yes, I'm well aware that some fine people profess their theism/atheism as "I know". I make no claim to absolute knowledge here.

WithoutReason wrote:

Some even state that religion is primitive falsehood that we as humanity need to overcome in order to improve the condition of the world, and many have suggested they would force theists to give up their beliefs (if it were possible, but at least they'd ban public expression of religion). The morality and consequences of banning religion might be interesting to explore, but perhaps we should save that for another thread.

Yea, you're quite right. I think many overtly-vocal atheists come in this flavor. This is where I get to admit to my own faults: I've come around on this issue over the years to a place that's more complicated than I thought: Everyone has an innate human right (woops, there's that term again) to worship or not as their conscience dictates; this must be. On the other hand,

I do believe that there exists the potential for better cooperation and harmony among humans were there no religion;

Yes I believe humans might focus on each other more, were our most deeply-held affections and hope not directed 'elsewhere'

And yea I do believe there is some measure of polarization that we could do without

...but this is a pipe-dream and I know that now. It won't happen and that's ok; not only that, depending on how one views "humanity's worth" it could reasonably perceived as better.

In any case, I feel strongly that the need to reach for something more, to have faith is a deeply personal and precious part of our humanity. Yes I think we could be better off without it - but no, I wouldn't take it away if I had the power. Given these strange bedfellows of thought, there exists but one solution left: Tolerance.

WithoutReason wrote:

Given my overall personality, I believe that I should be a spiritual person, but somehow I've become lost along the way and can no longer bring myself to believe. Like many agnostics/atheists, I was a believer (in my case, Christian) for an extended period of time.

Wow, I love the honesty. I feel often, on forums like this, most don't ascend to such deep-expressions for fear of getting their neck's chopped off or being perceived as 'weak'. Salute!

But yea, I know what you mean. Sometimes I feel the morose black-sheep among the smiling, happy crowd. At other times I stand amongst the crowd and want to yell, "Maybe we'd be a little nicer to each other were we not waiting for godot!" I do; however, have a suggestion: Pray. I hear that for some, some sort of answer comes; for me, there's been only the stare of my 'reality' looking back with a face that says: Deal with it, it's part of the human condition.

WithoutReason wrote:

Are people in my predicament simply people who are not strong enough to accept the reality that we are alone and responsible for our own destinies rather than trying to find comfort in a higher power who watches over us and ensures our immortality? Or are we people who so much want to have power over our own lives that we reject God and the responsibility that comes with believing in him? Or are we something else entirely?

Again; Capital questions! I think each person - regardless of where they stand this day - owes it to themselves to ask such questions. The fact that you've the personal fortitude to honestly ask says that, towards whichever destination of comfort, you're virtually there.

I'll apologize again for the long response; hoping its well received.

Thanks

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@Khethil,

I would like to add that belief is not always god motivated..it can come in many shades this need or well founded reason.Yes, as it has been stated we always have two sides, intellect can be the stronger or desire can overcome knowledge.I think even answering this question poses a question.

1 Reply

@xris,

xris wrote:

I would like to add that belief is not always god motivated..it can come in many shades this need or well founded reason.Yes, as it has been stated we always have two sides, intellect can be the stronger or desire can overcome knowledge.I think even answering this question poses a question.

Definitely! This aspect is, on its surface alone, horribly complicating. Add to that the variations in mindsets and; well, it gets downright crazy.

If you talk about theism (ref: This Thread's Title); then by definition, you're talking about a belief in god or gods. But if I take your meaning right: That "belief" can be similarly couched for just about anything, I agree wholeheartedly.

Thanks

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@Khethil,

Yo!!

"Life is mythologically compelled." Joseph Campbell

:)The thought of a higher power seems to be the one common idea of mankind. I cannot think of any ethnic group that does not have a belief in some form of high power. That said, with what we do know about the natural world today, makes the old mythologies and their demands of belief an insult to the intellect. As Carl Sage once stated, perhaps on the grounds of what we do know, and on the spectactular wonder of the cosmos, a new mythology will arise to guide us into the future. Humanity has always had a desire for security, but security at what price, it would be pleasant if Santa was real, but, the world demands of us to awaken and behave responsibly, and so we put away childish things.

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@WithoutReason,

In all honesty, and I mean this sincerely, nearly every single point Khethil made is exactly spot on with how I feel, so much so it's almost frightening. And please don't confuse me as one that doesn't attempt articulation of thought on my own - you can check my recent posts for proof that I do. But, really, everything I was going to say on this subject lies in Khetil's post, albeit much more eloquently.

I did want to elaborate on one part, however:

Quote:

Given these strange bedfellows of thought, there exists but one solution left: Tolerance.

I feel that more than tolerance, it's important we share thought. Planting seeds of consideration for others to cultivate. Yes, tolerate, and most certainly never attempt to force belief, but attempt enlightenment. Share your truth, and allow yourself to understand another's truth.

I'd also like to emphasize how truly important introspection is. The human psyche is extremely complex, and placing these petty labels on one another does not speak understanding! As illustrated here, "Theist" and "Atheist" can have profoundly differentiating meanings depending on the consciousness rationalizing. It's very important we do not succumb to presumptuous judgment.

Realizing this, more than any notion of intelligent design, brings me the most comfort. It fills that "private pain" Khethil spoke of. The understanding that, in a sense, we are actually the gods of our existence, of our conscious rationalizing. This passion for critical consideration is a beautiful thing indeed. There are infinite notions just waiting to be conjured, so many journies yet to be taken, so many perspectives we can achieve.

Whatever this is, we're in this together. Why not start acting like it?

"Out beyond ideas of rightdoing and wrongdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there."

Always loved that one.

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@WithoutReason,

WithoutReason;47729 wrote:

My question is are there any agnostics/atheists out there who, while finding it unlikely that God or any sort of higher power exists, find that probability undesirable and would rather that a higher power did exist?

That's a very good question, and one that's relatively novel compared with our typical conversations on the subject.

I guess you can ask the question two ways --

One is emotional or visceral: Do we feel some sort of inner dissatisfaction with the lack of a higher power, but our intellect isn't happy with theism as an explanation?

Number two is intellectual: Do we find it theoretically improbable that the universe as we know it could come into being only by natural processes?

I think that most conversations about #2 are really a sublimation of point #1. In other words, many people feel deep inside that there is something grand, sublime, wondrous about existence, and there are many who have since childhood channeled that into an inherited religious tradition. Thus, they are so intertwined that such people cannot entertain the idea of atheism because it somehow implies that our sense of wonder must be rejected.

Speaking for myself, I'm in a bit of a unique position because I don't believe in god in those terms, but I also don't reject religion. I practice Judaism because it has great importance to my family and its self-identity, and the allegorical, metaphorical, and traditional elements are satisfying enough to me. When I invoke God in a prayer, to me it's not an issue of existence or not -- God as a concept has been a beacon for the tradition that I come from, and that is not mutually exclusive with atheism from an intellectual point of view.

I also don't reject religion in general solely because I can name atrocities and anachronisms in religion's name. I think religion has made such indelible contributions to our culture, including the thought processes of modernity, that one can't look at it only as something that's holding us down.

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@Aedes,

right now, i'd consider myself agnostic. i've often thought that i would probably be better off firmly believing that there was a higher power, that i'd be happier knowing someone was watching over me, but i'm not sure. much of my early life i was a christian, and i was still very depressed (much moreso then i am now). i'm not sure how much comfort religion gives to "average" believers (those that don't literally devote their entire lives to their God(s)). after i lost my faith, i became atheist and wondered often if anyone truly believed in their religion, because everybody seemed to fear death, despite the belief that they'd go to heaven when they died, and quite a few people still seemed to let life get to them.

i guess i'd think i was better off if i knew who God and the nature of God. the fact that God seems to be a rorsach test for whoever one asks about the nature of God gives me a good idea of all the ways i wouldn't want God to be like.

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@Kreist,

I think we could all believe in the possibility if he was described to our satisfaction. I dont even consider god because the picture is never good enough.

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@xris,

Notionally, anything can exist. We have the power to construct notions on a whim, and every human has the ability to accept or denounce the notions of anyone else. I'm not a theist because I believe that humans have the ability to believe there is no God; I know the notion can sometimes not exist. I'm not an atheist because I believe that humans have the ability to believe there is a God; I know the notion can sometimes exist. I'm not an agnostic in regards to theism because I know both of these classifications can exist and be believed depending on the consciousness rationalizing.

In this way, my power is realized, I am the creator of my consciousness, and I begin recognizing "God" as a notion, rather than a separate entity. I begin to understand that entirely too much attention has been received by this notion, "God", and Humanity must start realizing spirituality does not start and stop with the rationalization of an omnipotent being. We see oversimplification at it's finest, limiting our minds to these nonsensical labels, driving us further apart. We must stop equating "God" to probability, we must discover and demystify, obtaining strength and faith from within rather than kneeling on a crutch for artificial fulfillment.

You want to get closer to God? Consider.

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@WithoutReason,

WithoutReason wrote:

My question is are there any agnostics/atheists out there who, while finding it unlikely that God or any sort of higher power exists, find that probability undesirable and would rather that a higher power did exist?

Yes, great question, though I suppose there are in fact two questions here: 1) Is it tempting to believe in some higher power?; 2) Is it tempting to subscribe to a particular religion?

1) Yes, I find aspects of personal faith in an influential higher power most appealing, especially if I'm suffering some (generally minor) misfortune. However, I'd have no idea how to start believing. I know there is no reason to believe in such a power so I have no idea how one goes about fooling oneself that there is. Something theists have that atheists don't is the ability to overrule doubt, scepticism, reason and even overwhelming contrary evidence so that faith is maintained. I wouldn't want that for the world, let alone for a little peace of mind. Further, I assert my independence, always. I don't like the idea of relying on some invisible entity to get me through hard times. I guess this makes the lows harder and the highs more joyous. I'm happier in the long run for having that.

2) An emphatic No! Assuming I made the first step above, I'd see nothing to gain in making this second step. I suppose that, once such a position is adopted, most people like to have that position validated by the concurrence of others. I've never been one for that. I generally assume that when there is concurrence there is conformance, and when there is conformance there is lack of thought. Just as I must maintain my independence (and so my self-dependence), I must also protect my individuality and I do this through thought. When my views do concur with others, I know there is no causal relation, merely either coincidence or convergence to some 'best truth'.

Independence gives me the strength to act, since I know I alone am responsible for my outcomes. Individuality gives me the knowledge to best judge how to act, since it is in my best interest to choose the right outcomes. And since I am largely my knowledge and my actions, there is nothing I can receive of equal or greater worth that would tempt me to trade them.

1 Reply

@Bones-O,

Hi All!

It would be irrational not to wish that a god existed, and is going to grant you immortality, that the human condition is not a wretched one as it appears to be. Personally I would be happy to die and go to that big rock candy mountain where the cops have wooden legs, but, that too has no foundation in reality.

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@boagie,

The big test the faithful tell me is when your in need of divine intervention on a personal basis...Ive been there and it did not cross my mind to seek gods help . I would have been very grateful for this benevolent god but you dont, you cant find one for self benefit however much you would like to.

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@xris,

To be honest, yes.

However, it definately wouldnt be the god of the bible or any god that has such embarrassing human qualities such as jealousy, vengefulness, hypocrisy, etc. Or at that any god that would punish beings infinitely for finite circumstances and lack of knowledge. I do wish that there was some sort of cosmic force that distributed justice accordingly but its pretty obvious that isnt the case. Also, an authority that has totalitarianistic tendencies would be frightening in my mind.

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@xris,

Like Khethil writes (that was a helpful and appreciated post, by the way Smile

), for me the matter is primarily a struggle between my emotional and intellectual self. In some people such as myself, the emotional self is highly developed, perhaps even more so than the intellectual self at times. We know that reality is what it is, but there is that longing for something more, for reality to actually have a different makeup. I have always felt the need for spirituality, even if that sprituality does not include the belief in a God as we traditionally perceive him. While I may recognize that it is unlikely we are immortal beings and that we can turn to a higher power to pull us out of whatever rut we might find ourselves in, those ideas do appeal to the emotional self. Unfortunately for those of us with strong emotional selves, it is not as easy to allow the intellectual self to quiet the emotional self with a simple reminder that accepting reality and making the best of it is the wisest choice, much as we perhaps should Smile

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@xris,

Khethil, your post was very thoughtful; thank you. But I am left with a couple of questions.

Khethil wrote:

I do believe that there exists the potential for better cooperation and harmony among humans were there no religion;

While there is no doubt that there exists the potential for better cooperation and harmony among humans, I do not understand why the absence of religion would necessarily improve the cooperation and harmony. I understand why some might come to this conclusion given the history of religious divisiveness, but I do not see the inherent divisiveness in religion.

Khethil wrote:

Yes I believe humans might focus on each other more, were our most deeply-held affections and hope not directed 'elsewhere

This phrase struck me as particularly strange. If we look at scripture, from any tradition, the bulk of the teachings tend to be concerned with helping the practitioner better interact with other humans: they teach cooperation, harmony, and love for others. I'm just not sure where or what 'elsewhere' might be when religious and spiritual teachings focus on the interaction between humans.

Khethil wrote:

And yea I do believe there is some measure of polarization that we could do without

Right on, brother. :a-ok:

Maybe it is worth noting that I am not opposed to the abolition of religion, especially the notion of religion which thrives in the popular consciousness: the idea of a variety of inherently contradictory philosophies which would prefer to have one another destroyed. Muhammad spoke highly of the other faiths with which he was familiar, Buddhism has a history of meeting other traditions with open arms, and the Baha'i faith is characterized by it's inclusiveness of foreign religious perspectives. The potential is there; one might even argue that history has been building up to the moment when distinctions between faith traditions might be blurred or even extinguished.

Khethil, my favorite aspect of your post was the general suggestion that spirituality, and the lack thereof, is personal. I think that you are right. When we get past categories and labels, when we can study and take wisdom from whatever source most impresses us, then we are most able to embark on such a very personal journey.

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@Didymos Thomas,

You could not ban religion but you could stop its influence in politics and the effects it has on millions of its followers.Please dont go on again about the peaceful nature of islam it really annoys me when it is not true.We have just had a dutch mp slung out of the country because he dares to criticise islam..Free speech in the uk has been put back a hundred years because of the fact we cant have an opinion on religion.I disagree with a lot of people but i will fight for the right to disagree with them and them with me.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Hey DT,

I knew someone would zero in on the few beliefs I expressed, I just wasn't sure who it would be. :p

That's OK, I just wouldn't want to sidetrack this thread concerning the desire to believe and see yet another good discussion digress back into a more fundamental debate on belief systems that's not going to get solved. We do that a lot here, you know; so many good discussions on such-and-such come back to this core question and die a slow death as parties try to convince one another. I suppose this, too, is OK (such is the nature of the basis for belief systems). But I'm digressing...

That all being said; you asked my basis on some things. I'm all to happy to accommodate and I'll step out on that limb with you; however, be advised these are my beliefs (not absolute assertions of objective reality). So you can take it for what you will.

Khethil wrote:

I do believe that there exists the potential for better cooperation and harmony among humans were there no religion
Didymos Thomas wrote:
While there is no doubt that there exists the potential for better cooperation and harmony among humans, I do not understand why the absence of religion would necessarily improve the cooperation and harmony. I understand why some might come to this conclusion given the history of religious divisiveness, but I do not see the inherent divisiveness in religion.

[INDENT]Careful there: I didn't say it, "... would necessarily improve" such cooperation. What I said was (see above) that it had the potential; as I see it and only in the context in how I see it. Nonetheless...
[/INDENT][INDENT]One could come at this from a number of directions and reach the same conclusion. I suppose that, for the most part, any deeply-held principles that people hold dear have the undeniable tendency for perpetuating rifts amongst said people. We see this in everything from football teams to the belief in alien abductions. What distinguishes religion is that unusually-strong sense of conviction it generally bestows (and upon which so many of our views are based). Such a fundamental, deeply-personal thought collection - unlike my favorite sports team - often speaks to who we are, what we are and at times where we're going as well as meaning, purpose, existence and much more.

Combine these together in the emotional human heart (along with that polarizing effect, the "yes there is" and "no there isn't"-nature of the theistic/atheistic debate), and perhaps it may become clear why it's so vitriolic; then through to its logical permutation; that the presence of any religious views can themselves be construed as barriers to overcome.

I'd like to point out that I did not propose the elimination of religion; as if such a thing could be done - nor would I eliminate it myself were I able. This only speaks to religion's unique ability to polarize to a greater, more personal extent than other systemically contentious thought types.
[/INDENT]

Khethil wrote:

Yes I believe humans might focus on each other more, were our most deeply-held affections and hope not directed 'elsewhere'
Didymos Thomas wrote:
This phrase struck me as particularly strange. If we look at scripture, from any tradition, the bulk of the teachings tend to be concerned with helping the practitioner better interact with other humans: they teach cooperation, harmony, and love for others. I'm just not sure where or what 'elsewhere' might be when religious and spiritual teachings focus on the interaction between humans.

[INDENT] Let's put it this way: Take any god-belief (in any way that one defines 'god') as a supreme being or perhaps an all-encompassing totality, a vast plane of energy binding the galaxy together or maybe a holy Dalmatian sitting on a throne of dog bones and you'll find that for nearly every conceptualization of a god concept there is the association of "something more" or perhaps "something beautiful" and most certainly "something godlike". Even if one's conceptualization of God has nothing to do with the supernatural, there is that "something more" or "beyond the corporeal" fascination. These are - I believe - part and parcel to what distinguishes the word 'god'; no matter how much its' diluted. Yes, I could call my study lamp a 'god', but this is not the context in which I speak of the concept.

I believe that the god notion becomes a hope or focus in life for the believer; and in so doing, bestows and/or directs that person's most dearly-held affections about their existence on to something that is not standing next to them. Could such cooperation thing be enhanced (as I think you're suggesting)? Sure, I've seen cases myself. But it's been my observation that this generally isn't the case - your mileage may vary. What if that focus, that hope that I've spoken to weren't placed on something existing as a concept; that it were placed on the people with whom we live?

This is my personal basis for that idea; that our dearest emotional 'faith' might be better served - better saved and placed - in the goodness of person-to-person ideals rather than something 'out there' or existing only as a generalized, non-corporeal or mystical notion.
[/INDENT]Given the vast diversity of theistic-belief systems (which seem to be getting murkier as each year passes), it's not possible to draw en-masse conclusions. But there are some basic, fundamental correlates to theism. But since we've gone down this road (much to my apprehension) here, I'll again restate: I don't see religion as evil - I see it as a common thread in humanity that, while serving some good; likewise has it's ill effects (as all things do). For us to paint Theism as "All Bad" or "All Good" would be irresponsible; some of which you've addressed above are what I see to be potential pitfalls - nothing more.

I hope this helps your understanding of my beliefs; please keep in mind this is all they are. I fear that through this line of questioning the focus of this thread's intent may be diminished. If that actually happens, we'll need to transfer these few posts to a new thread maybe.

Thanks

0 Replies

@WithoutReason,

WithoutReason wrote:

Most of the atheists/agnostics I have encountered seem content, or at least satisfied, or if you insist, we can say not dissatisfied, with the position of disbelief they have selected. Some even state that religion is primitive falsehood that we as humanity need to overcome in order to improve the condition of the world, and many have suggested they would force theists to give up their beliefs (if it were possible, but at least they'd ban public expression of religion). The morality and consequences of banning religion might be interesting to explore, but perhaps we should save that for another thread.

My question is are there any agnostics/atheists out there who, while finding it unlikely that God or any sort of higher power exists, find that probability undesirable and would rather that a higher power did exist?

In my case, I would consider myself an agnostic with atheistic tendencies. However, I do not necessarily find it pleasant that God may not exist, and that we truly may be alone in the universe. Given my overall personality, I believe that I should be a spiritual person, but somehow I've become lost along the way and can no longer bring myself to believe. Like many agnostics/atheists, I was a believer (in my case, Christian) for an extended period of time.

Are people in my predicament simply people who are not strong enough to accept the reality that we are alone and responsible for our own destinies rather than trying to find comfort in a higher power who watches over us and ensures our immortality? Or are we people who so much want to have power over our own lives that we reject God and the responsibility that comes with believing in him? Or are we something else entirely?

Ya know, I'm not sure "want" has any thing to do with it. Imho.

0 Replies

Do any atheists/agnostics want to believe?

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