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Thomas Aquinas: Five Arguments for the Existence of God.

 
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:27 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;136285 wrote:
The entry of Aristotle's writings to Europe was profoundly influential.

And wasn't it Islam that kept them safe for awhile? Interesting collision of cultures.
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:39 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;136286 wrote:
And wasn't it Islam that kept them safe for awhile? Interesting collision of cultures.
Apparently Arabic is a superior language for poetry, science and philosophy. Next life: learn Arabic.

When the Greeks entered Egypt, their conception of time was expanded. The same thing happened to Europeans when they learned about ancient Greece.

When the Ottoman Empire blocked trade routes to India, Europeans launched into oceanic exploration. Their conception of space expanded. The Ottoman also caused a migration of Greek speakers to Europe.

So the rule is: anything that makes you feel smaller will trigger dynamism.
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Thu 4 Mar, 2010 08:45 pm
@Arjuna,
Arjuna;136293 wrote:

So the rule is: anything that makes you feel smaller will trigger dynamism.


I now see, thanks to Hegel and Wittgenstein, that dynamism is fundamentally hard-wired into the very way man thinks....Deep pure ontology. "Spirit" was always and is still a great metaphor. Man is essentially dynamic. And conceptualization is his very essence. Therefore the taboo on idolatry, or picturing God, for God is no static thing, but rather the dynamic conceptual element in man immersed in qualia/nature.

Sound crazy? Kant was wrong. Hegel was right.
0 Replies
 
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 11:05 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;135834 wrote:
It's interesting that even in the 13th century and even in Italy, believers needed to offer arguments in their attempts to persuade others that their god was real.


Was it really mischaracterization?

it is interesting that
as in - hmmmm intersting, I find it funny that, isn't it a litte queer - Interesting - the English catch all word for I really don't find this fascinating I find this run of the mill bordering on stupid.

That even in the 13 century and even in Italy
Double evens even coupled 13th century and Italy - This sets up the incredulity of the rest of the sentence by setting up the 'even in the stereotypically church theocracy of the dark ages' Double modifiers signify the magnitude in which it was 13th century Italy, not just normal 13th century Italy.

Believers needed to offer arguments
After having set up the sarcastic introduction by stating unsurprised incredulity the following in no way can be interpreted as unbiased. By coupling Beleivers (faithful) with needed to offer arguments. it is asking the question in the readers mind, Why would the faithful need to explain anything, if they believed they should not have to offer logical arguments. This also implies that faith itself is illogical. "I find it incredulous that a confessed person of faith has a double standard of "blind faith" and the need to have a rational explanation.

in their attempts to persuade others that their god is real
in this section the possessive pronouns their is distancing the speaker from the believer, redirecting the reader to see the speaker as the incredulous one in the beginning of the sentence. Attempts to persuade coupled with the incredulity shows the inherent unsucessful nature of the believer's argument, any argument that a believer might have as it was not directed specifically to Aquinas. Their god is real also shows that the believer is just one of many that believe in any number of gods that are equally unarguable and equally deserving of the incredulity of the speakers opening words.

was it really a mischaracterization? Speaker opening with derision then distancing himself from the subject matter by intimating that they are all unable to be logical because of their belief, even when the majority of their peers share that belief?
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 04:59 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;136513 wrote:
By coupling Beleivers (faithful) with needed to offer arguments. it is asking the question in the readers mind, Why would the faithful need to explain anything, if they believed they should not have to offer logical arguments.
Of course it is, that's what's interesting, that in Italy, the heart of the Catholic church, at a time when the general impression received is that almost everyone was a devout Catholic, the proposal of arguments attempting to establish the god of Catholicism suggests that in fact it was not the case that almost everyone was a devout Catholic.
GoshisDead;136513 wrote:
This also implies that faith itself is illogical. "I find it incredulous that a confessed person of faith has a double standard of "blind faith" and the need to have a rational explanation.
Rubbish. Spell out the inferences that entail this implication.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 05:07 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;136286 wrote:
And wasn't it Islam that kept them safe for awhile? Interesting collision of cultures.


"Collision"?.............

---------- Post added 03-05-2010 at 06:10 PM ----------

ughaibu;136643 wrote:
Of course it is, that's what's interesting, that in Italy, the heart of the Catholic church, at a time when the general impression received is that almost everyone was a devout Catholic, the proposal of arguments attempting to establish the god of Catholicism suggests that in fact it was not the case that almost everyone was a devout Catholic.Rubbish. Spell out the inferences that entail this implication.


You keep assuming that arguments are always made in order to persuade people of what they do not believe. But that is not true. Aquinas need not have been writing to persuade anyone of anything.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 05:13 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;136645 wrote:
You keep assuming that arguments are always made in order to persuade people of what they do not believe. But that is not true. Aquinas need not have been writing to persuade anyone of anything.
No I dont. I have already acknowledged that my initial statement was thoughtless and ignorant. I am defending myself against other charges.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 05:34 pm
@ughaibu,
If one feels compelled to offer a logical explanation on something that it not logically explicable, that thing that is not explicable must be illogical.

Or: Aquinas thinks he has to make an argument for the 'obviously inexplicable' therefore his faith/belief must be illogical, because obviously its inexplicable.
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 05:42 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;136654 wrote:
If one feels compelled to offer a logical explanation on something that it not logically explicable, that thing that is not explicable must be illogical.

Or: Aquinas thinks he has to make an argument for the 'obviously inexplicable' therefore his faith/belief must be illogical, because obviously its inexplicable.
I didn't say anything was obviously inexplicable, did I? And I didn't draw any conclusion, I stated that "it's interesting", that's all.
0 Replies
 
Reconstructo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 06:28 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;136645 wrote:
"Collision"?.............

-

Silky smooth embrace....
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 06:35 pm
@Reconstructo,
Reconstructo;136690 wrote:
Silky smooth embrace....
I don't know. Since the Muslims were identified as Antichrist, maybe not so smooth.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 5 Mar, 2010 08:23 pm
@Reconstructo,
What about Edmund Husserl's system of philosophy developed in stages, moving from logic to ontology to phenomenology. "The development of Husserl's thought"

But how could "pure" or "transcendental" phenomenology - analyzing the pure essence of consciousness as we experience it evolve out of ontology and behind that logic ?. Husserl's delimitation of "pure" phenomenology depends on his novel conception of "formal" (as distinct from "material") ontology, which in turn depends on his wide conception of "pure" or "formal" logic

http://www.springerlink.com/content/j718882676404u60/

Shinya NOE
Ever since cognitive science emerged as a "science of consciousness," we have been confronted with a challenging question concerning the self-understanding of phenomenology, i.e., the question of how we should think of the relationship between phenomenology and cognitive science. In considering this question, one possible position that one could take would be to clarify the proper character of the "philosophical question" in contrast to that of the "scientific question" concerning the issues of knowledge.

Then it could be argued, for example, that cognitive science deals with "cognitive process as a fact," whereas phenomenology deals with "the conditions of possibility of cognitive process."

But such an argument tends to lead to a contrast between the scientific approach in general (including cognitive science) and the philosophical approach in general, and to pass over the issue proper to cognitive science, especially that of its methodology. In this essay I will not take this position.

Lets clarify the philosophical implications of the emergence of cognitive science in connection with phenomenology. We could gain a clear picture of the issue if we take the concept of "systems" into consideration as the medium between phenomenology and cognitive science.
0 Replies
 
awareness
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 04:00 pm
@Alan McDougall,
The existence of God is only proven by our ability to experience. God is the material that allows us to be conscious. Think of God more like the source of our consciousness.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Mar, 2010 04:11 pm
@awareness,
awareness;138389 wrote:
The existence of God is only proven by our ability to experience. God is the material that allows us to be conscious. Think of God more like the source of our consciousness.


You are positing God as the source of consciousness, which is fine. All you now need is evidence for that.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 01:06 am
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;138392 wrote:
You are positing God as the source of consciousness, which is fine. All you now need is evidence for that.


You exist!! Why cant a greater being or a god also exist?
Krumple
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 02:02 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;138544 wrote:
You exist!! Why cant a greater being or a god also exist?


I exist so everything imaginary also exists? So just because I exist the flying pink elephant and gremlins also exist? Is this the kind of reasoning and logic you use? It's flawed to state the obvious.
0 Replies
 
ughaibu
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 02:28 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;138544 wrote:
You exist!! Why cant a greater being or a god also exist?
'Why cant x?' isn't evidence for x, neither is it reason to suppose x.
Arjuna
 
  1  
Reply Thu 11 Mar, 2010 06:30 am
@ughaibu,
ughaibu;138555 wrote:
'Why cant x?' isn't evidence for x, neither is it reason to suppose x.
The question: "why can't God exist?" could be reworded: is there a reason the idea of God is necessary? Thomas Aquinas (according to the OP) expained the necessity. Without a prime mover, the causes stretch back infinitely.

Many have said that they have no problem with that. It is, nevertheless, inconceivable.
0 Replies
 
 

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