My difficulty with karma and reincarnation

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;99231 wrote:

[RIGHT] [/RIGHT]

I wonder why all these reincarnations have produced a world that is essentially no better off than it was thousands of years ago, where people still kill each other, where greed is rampant, where millions starve to death because of a lack of attention from those who could help them. And what about the first children born to Adam and Eve?

(Or, if you don't like the concept of Adam and Eve, call them the first two real humans.)

Did Adam and Eve (male and female) have to die for their souls to reincarnate into their children? And, how did six billion souls reincarnate out of two souls? I cant get reincarnation to make any sense.

Alan

Alan out of all the questions you have posted, I find this one the best you have come up with yet. I'm surprised it didn't get responses...

I want to start with your last question first. "how did six billion souls reincarnate out of two souls?"

The Buddha mentions that there are other realms of existence other than the one we currently inhabit. So if you take these realms as real places and not just some metaphor for a mental state then by all means these beings could exist in these other worlds/dimensions and become the children of people living in this world. So if you die as an animal you might be reborn as the child of some human. If this is how it works then by all means you can get expanding or contracting populations of all species.

Your first question is the most interesting to me; "why all these reincarnations have produced a world that is essentially no better off than it was thousands of years ago..."

This result fits well with the theory. If we do not retain any past memories of previous existences then by all means we would repeat the same mistakes over and over again. It would seem that you would get better results if we could remember past life memories, so then we might not continue to behave the same way and you would directly have knowledge of what will happen if you act in certain ways. If you knew you would would be reborn into an unfortunate birth for doing this or that then you might think twice before doing it. You would also know why your current situation is why it is. You couldn't blame anything other than yourself.

That all sounds rather harsh and too simple. I really don't think it is anything like what I just explained. It is just what I get out of the teachings. I think we have self cognition and believe our lives are more than what they are, but in reality we live once, die once and never exist again.

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Well we are all recycled "star stuff" and my body problably contains a few atoms that used to belong to Ghengis Kahn or a dinosaur. That is about as close to reincarnation as I can get? I beleive in the divine but not much in "life after death".

1 Reply

@Krumple,

Krumple;99267 wrote:

Alan out of all the questions you have posted, I find this one the best you have come up with yet. I'm surprised it didn't get responses...

I want to start with your last question first. "how did six billion souls reincarnate out of two souls?"

The Buddha mentions that there are other realms of existence other than the one we currently inhabit. So if you take these realms as real places and not just some metaphor for a mental state then by all means these beings could exist in these other worlds/dimensions and become the children of people living in this world. So if you die as an animal you might be reborn as the child of some human. If this is how it works then by all means you can get expanding or contracting populations of all species.

Your first question is the most interesting to me; "why all these reincarnations have produced a world that is essentially no better off than it was thousands of years ago..."

This result fits well with the theory. If we do not retain any past memories of previous existences then by all means we would repeat the same mistakes over and over again. It would seem that you would get better results if we could remember past life memories, so then we might not continue to behave the same way and you would directly have knowledge of what will happen if you act in certain ways. If you knew you would would be reborn into an unfortunate birth for doing this or that then you might think twice before doing it. You would also know why your current situation is why it is. You couldn't blame anything other than yourself.

That all sounds rather harsh and too simple. I really don't think it is anything like what I just explained. It is just what I get out of the teachings. I think we have self cognition and believe our lives are more than what they are, but in reality we live once, die once and never exist again.

Hi Krumple some schools of reincarnation and karma believe we bigin our existence as a very primitive life form. That would answer the question about where do the billions of humans come from. If we accept that position as true then how the heck would one cockroach become better than another cockroach and be able to reincarnate as a higher life form , say a frog all the way until it finally evolves by the process or reincarnation and positive karma into a human

This is a serious question, the Hindu sect the Janes believe all life is sacred and avoid even killing an insect if they can help it

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;99473 wrote:

Hi Krumple some schools of reincarnation and karma believe we bigin our existence as a very primitive life form. That would answer the question about where do the billions of humans come from. If we accept that position as true then how the heck would one cockroach become better than another cockroach and be able to reincarnate as a higher life form , say a frog all the way until it finally evolves by the process or reincarnation and positive karma into a human

This is a serious question, the Hindu sect the Janes believe all life is sacred and avoid even killing an insect if they can help it

Quite simply there is a universal law. If you uphold the law of "cause no harm" then you travel down the path of compassion. If you uphold the law of "all for oneself" then you travel down the path of egoism.

Is it possible that a cockroach could have self cognition enough to place other cockroaches before itself? If that is possible or plausible then by all means the universal law of cause no harm could be upheld. This would be the factor in determining that cockroaches next existence.

However; I should also add that the Buddha mentions that once one's karma debt has been "paid" the next existence is based off the mind state of the being. So in other words you might be reborn into a more favorable existence after being a cockroach even if you never really did anything "possitive" as a cockroach.

What exactly causes the result? Not sure, but I wouldn't say there is a being sentencing every being. It might just be mind made result. If you can over come anger, happiness is much easier to find. If you can give a little more than you take, you tend to attract a lot of "friends". Perhaps this law is just a natural process of mind? What you put forth is what happens. If you hate, hate tends to follow you. If you put forth love, well that too I guess would tend to follow you.

Sounds simple, sounds hippish (<---if that is even a word) but definitely a possibility. But how possible? Hard to say.

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@Alan McDougall,

Krumple;99267 wrote:

If we do not retain any past memories of previous existences then by all means we would repeat the same mistakes over and over again.

That is why you don't go messing with the past. It is dead and gone. What you need to know travels with you from one life to the next and what alters that course, is being forced to recall the past and it is called history and when we do we create a hysterectomy. Like I have said before the truth is in the words we use. That past is the bowels of our being and the earth has laid waste to it. Like when the womb, portal of humankind, is no longer ripe for child bearing and ceases to function and a woman becomes barren. To explain why women are barren would entail too much and it would definitely disrupt this thread. So let's stay on topic. I will just say, if a woman is barren, there is a reason for it. It also has to do with why women miscarry, also.

Krumple;99267 wrote:

It would seem that you would get better results if we could remember past life memories, so then we might not continue to behave the same way and you would directly have knowledge of what will happen if you act in certain ways. If you knew you would be reborn into an unfortunate birth for doing this or that then you might think twice before doing it.

Krumple, in all due respect, you say "we", but what you are really saying is "you". If you could remember............., this is how you would do it. The fact is, you don't know what is best for you; most don't. The more familiar we are with something, the more we grow in contempt of it as we become bored with it all. We "think" we know best, and we don't. It's just that we have become familiar with it and "don't want to lose it", regardless of how others feel. In your boredom you would have a tendency to steal from others, to keep from becoming bored and take that life from them, which some "family traditions" effort to do. Also, can't go there either, that would definitely take us off topic as they, too, would cling to that "sordid/ignoble/squalid" history as some families effort to do to protect their ethnic purity.

When we effort to peruse per/each/use history for our own self-interests, we are the ones who repeat it, not the "rest" of us who don't. Most are not so curious. Most philosophers are selfish as they are trying to find a truth in history that will satisfy their curiosity and pass that on to others. It can concluded it is their penance for causing the chaos in the present from there past "antics". It is there "karma" and will remain in unrest until they finally do understand the truth and give up their search. I guess you could say we are all philosophers to an extent and why we "think" entirely too much.

Now, let's assume you have lived many lives? What is it that you don't remember that has hindered this life? Now you really have to think about that for a second. What?

Krumple;99267 wrote:

You would also know why your current situation is why it is.

What's wrong with "your" current situation? Someone forcing you to be "otherwise" or are you searching for something you don't need, or do need and don't know who to ask? Gets confusing, huh? It will be the death of you until you do. See how it works. Ha!

Krumple;99267 wrote:

You couldn't blame anything other than yourself...............That all sounds rather harsh and too simple.

Yeah, the ultimate guilt trip. It is harsh and simple and know one wants to admit to it. No perfect human being would. But we are not that perfect yet, are we? But we are getting there. Never give up on tomorrow and what it will bring! For when you do, you become barren and you go to waste to be reborn................another day.

Krumple;99267 wrote:

I really don't think it is anything like what I just explained. It is just what I get out of the teachings. I think we have self cognition and believe our lives are more than what they are, but in reality we live once, die once and never exist again.

Ha! See what I mean. No one gets off that easily. It will come to you, I guarantee it. It's not a matter of what you think. It would if you lived alone on this planet, but you don't do you. There are groups of us here that comprise one group and we must take those into consideration. And we will.......................one day, then it will come to us all. You can't escape it. :a-ok:

William

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@Alan McDougall,

There is a type of Karma that operates in this present life, if you fail at something you will repeat your mistake until you have overcome it. I know this as an cured addict previously addicted to prescription drugs, now free thank god!

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;99710 wrote:

There is a type of Karma that operates in this present life, if you fail at something you will repeat your mistake until you have overcome it. I know this as an cured addict previously addicted to prescription drugs, now free thank god!

Alan, what if you are failing at something you should have never tried to attempt and what it was that caused you to. You take it personally as if it is your fault and that guilt will truly eat you alive. If you could just let it go, then you would be truly free. That god in you will see to it for you.

People do all kinds of things in order to maintain a balance and an equilibrium to it all, not just drugs and it mostly comes from others interfering with that internal process that is you.

Yes, there is a universal construct that "WILL" maintain it's balance, no matter what and we all suffer that "karma" or universal justice until we do finally "get it right". Remember, it's no body's fault, we are just young, impetuous and filled with hubris; and some are just spoiled brats and need to be sent to their room to think about all the damage they have done, Ha.

William

1 Reply

@William,

William;99719 wrote:

Alan, what if you are failing at something you should have never tried to attempt and what it was that caused you to. You take it personally as if it is your fault and that guilt will truly eat you alive. If you could just let it go, then you would be truly free. That god in you will see to it for you.

People do all kinds of things in order to maintain a balance and an equilibrium to it all, not just drugs and it mostly comes from others interfering with that internal process that is you.

Yes, there is a universal construct that "WILL" maintain it's balance, no matter what and we all suffer that "karma" or universal justice until we do finally "get it right". Remember, it's no body's fault, we are just young, impetuous and filled with hubris; and some are just spoiled brats and need to be sent to their room to think about all the damage they have done, Ha.

William

"Thank you William that was a loving and caring post that gave me much thought, yes my addiction caused me to have a great deal of guilt"

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@Alan McDougall,

You are so very welcome, my friend. :bigsmile:

William

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Because the one's that achieve 'World Changing Enlightenment' are not reborn. How can the universe produce a tempered product without a refiner's fire?

1 Reply

@GoshisDead,

GoshisDead;99898 wrote:

Because the one's that achieve 'World Changing Enlightenment' are not reborn. How can the universe produce a tempered product without a refiner's fire?

Where does God fit into this belief? I don't see a need for God by karma we will ultimately perfect ourselves

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@Alan McDougall,

See that is just the thing. The Buddha mentions that we already are perfect to begin with. It's the not knowing or the misunderstanding of the true nature that causes all the problems. He said if you weren't already then you could never. He used a piece of cloth as an example. Saying that the white piece of cloth is pure in nature but might be dyed or soiled. All you have to do is clear away the stain and you'll return to the natural state of purity. I don't think it is about evolving or struggling to achieve anything. I don't even think it is a series of events or failures that get you there. It shouldn't even be a life long process. I think those who try to say that it is, have missed something and want to keep both the problem and the solution together, but you can't. Only those who are ready to take on the problem will be successful. But for most the price for doing that is more than they are willing to spend. You also can;t really force yourself down the path either, because any tiniest bit of resistance will become a hindrance. Similar to a person trying to quit smoking or give up their favorite dessert, if you want it, you won't be successful.

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@William,

Alan McDougall;99231 wrote:

I wonder why all these reincarnations have produced a world that is essentially no better off than it was thousands of years ago, where people still kill each other, where greed is rampant, where millions starve to death because of a lack of attention from those who could help them.
...................... And, how did six billion souls reincarnate out of two souls? I cant get reincarnation to make any sense.Alan

Hi,
I thank you for bringing up this question. It begs an answer. Let me make an attempt.

I have no knowledge on this subject of reincarnation, and karma. Almost zero. However, i do go by my instincts, and little bit of readings that i have done.

ATM, Reincarnation is a speculative theory to address the issue or problem of life after death. If death is a means to the end of life, than the life may well be regarded as a one time journey on earth. Since God was already created, surely what purposes would have been solved by a sentient man who lives a life, to procreate other sucessive and corresponding lifeforms like himslef or herself and leave all the bounties of Nature and goodwill he/she may have accummulated to a zero balance account. Surely, God needs to be kind enough, to make a path towards his own abode - which may be construed as the ultimate goal of man.

The problem a thinking man of the yore thus faced was how does a man gain from death. Reincarnation is the best possible devise conjured up to bestow respect to death. It gave hope to a dying man, that all is not lost.
The man dies with a thought of hope.

Equally, Karma, is highly controversial. Nevertheless, it is a highly accomplished concept and appears to be a mechanism to place moral values on human society. It is a psychological ploy to hold in leash a barbaric mindset, and imbibe the good values of culture.

There is also a need to define karma here.

Alan McDougall;99473 wrote:

Hi Krumple some schools of reincarnation and karma believe we bigin our existence as a very primitive life form. That would answer the question about where do the billions of humans come from. If we accept that position as true then how the heck would one cockroach become better than another cockroach and be able to reincarnate as a higher life form , say a frog all the way until it finally evolves by the process or reincarnation and positive karma into a human

This is a serious question, the Hindu sect the Janes believe all life is sacred and avoid even killing an insect if they can help it

I have not studied Jainism much, but i gather as follows:
Jainism is no sect. It has millions of followers. It has its own rituals, scripts and canons. It is a religion of compassion, non-violence and non-divinity.

It does believe in avatars, (?). But, they, the jains not killing an insect may not be directly related to reincarnation; but , yes, i suppose they do it under the notions of altruism, and karmic benefits (?).

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@Alan McDougall,

I was not insulting the Jains they are a sect in Hinduism

The concept of reincarnation is widely accepted among non-Christians, probably because it appeals to many who would like to believe that they would be given a second chance in case they failed to make the grade in this life.

Christianity disputes reincarnation because it is unnecessary, since anybody can "make the grade" simply through an act of their own will through faith in Jesus Christ.

The scientific rebuttal to reincarnation is quite simple. Because of the population explosion, more people are currently living on the earth than have ever lived on the earth for the entire history of humankind. In other words, over half of the people who have ever lived on earth have never died even once! There simply are not enough dead souls to go around for a second time. This does not absolutely eliminate reincarnation, but it does severely restrict its extent, especially for those who have claimed to have lived several times before. However, some people believe that souls can be reincarnated into or from animals.

In that case, it is possible that many people have been frogs before they reincarnated and became humans

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

GoshisDead;99898 wrote:

Because the one's that achieve 'World Changing Enlightenment' are not reborn. How can the universe produce a tempered product without a refiner's fire?

Sometimes. Other times they are reborn in order to help the rest of us along.

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@Alan McDougall,

2 Replies

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

Hi I dont need to go to any human source to find out if reincarnation is true or not. The Divine Christ Jesus said it was not true and that is good enough for me

"IT IS APPOINTED ONCE TO DIE AND THEN THE JUDGEMENT"

There are so many things wrong with reincarnation that I feel it's one of the more puzzling beliefs out there.

I find this response puzzling since you say that jesus statement is good enough yet you continue to ask questions? Wouldn't that mean that his statement is not good enough for you?

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

1) First of all, to accept reincarnation, you have to accept dualism. After all, it is the soul that survives and merely changes bodies when the current host dies. ?

No, you do not need to accept dualism at all. In fact enlightenment is the absence of dual mind. There is nothing that survives, no soul, nothing eternal. Nirvana is a "blowing out" like the extinguished candle flame. The burning desire for existence is extinguished, no further lives will come. ONLY if you still reside within the mind of ignorance will you seek birth.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

2) Living creatures, reincarnation claims that a new baby that doesn't have the same biological materials, don't have any of the same memories, doesn't have any sort of viable link to an old lady recently deceased from a heart attack, is indeed that old lady. It's patently absurd.

Every moment, every thought, every second, you change and are not the same being you were that second ago. It is an illusion to think you are the same being. Your body tells you this fact. Your body is constantly renewing cells. So why call it the same body? Because we are attached to name and form.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

But let's assume that the soul does exist and inhabits a new body when the old one dies.

This is a wrong view or assumption.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

3) Why does the soul forget its past experiences? What would make the soul's memories stop when the old body dies?

Memories are contained within the brain. The only way that you can recall past lives is to have gone beyond. Where the past present and future are all the same.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

4) Why would the self - the soul - not be able to remember? Is the soul not the ultimate self? Why would a new body limit the self's ability to conjure its own memories?

Because there is no soul, that is why you do not recall your past lives.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

No, this has been tested. It is a receptor that fires twice while absorbing the impulse from the sense data giving the impression that you experience the same experience twice, but its only an echo like effect.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

5) I ask what is the mechanism is for memories to be blocked or let through?. If they are blocked, how are they getting through? Why can't they all get through?

The only thing that could get through would be karmic.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

6) And if your old memories are lost forever, then what is the point of being reincarnated?

There is no point, it happens because the desire for existence is strong. It is that desire that causes rebirth to happen.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

7) The point of reincarnation is to extend life, but if you can't retain memories or lessons or knowledge from those past lives, how exactly have you extended your life?

You haven't. Your actions are what result in shortening or lengthening of life.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

8) It's not much better than saying you achieve immortality by living on in the hearts and minds of your friends.

For most it seems better to have this than anything else. I never even have found a single christian that accepts their loved ones have ended up in hell. They all write it off and say they all have gone to heaven. Have you ever seen a priest at a funeral say that the person in the grave has gone to hell? No not once. Not even if they were a serial killer have you ever seen them say such a thing.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

9) I want to live forever by living forever. I don't want some memory or trace of me living on.

My question is why? The longer you live the more devalued life becomes. If we all lived for ever the value you place on things would drastically change. You would take people for granted. You would take everything you love in this finite life and take a big crap on it.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

10) Where were all the souls before the earth existed?

There is no such thing as a soul. In other words there is nothing that exists eternally that carries with it some individuality or personality.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

11) Where will they go when the earth is destroyed?

They have never come, nor will they ever go anywhere.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

12) Will they continue to exist and be sentient, to interact in soul-land?

nope.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

13) Then why come into bodies at all??? the spiritual body is much superior why leave it for bleak flesh and blood

Desire for existence.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

14) And then what if the ratio of bodies-to-souls is off, say more souls than bodies?

There is a body when there is desire for existence. No soul required.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

15) Do the souls just hang out in soul-land waiting for a new body to inhabit?

Nope.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

16) Or what if there are more bodies than souls? Are new souls born?

Nope.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

17) Or are there some people who are just automatons - functioning robots without souls at all? Could we tell the automatons apart from the real people?

Soulless yes. Automatons no.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

18) Now let's deal with animals, if you accept trans-special reincarnation. Clearly some animals have different sorts of mental functioning abilities.

Subject to the results of karma.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

19) We can reason better, rats can discern smells better, bats can hear well. Different animals can see in different colors, very much a mental process of the mind.

I would say more of functioning brain to organ. Just like blind humans don't see as well as humans who have sight. Test their hearing I bet it's different too.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

20) How does the soul make up for these things?

It doesn't because it would have to have faculties to. In other words if it existed it would be nothing different than your current body/mind. Meaning it would die.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

21) When we get transferred to a chicken, do we lose our ability to reason?

Yep.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

22) When we are transferred out of a wolf, do we lose the knowledge of how to hunt?

Do wolves know how to hunt? You relearn the skills of survival from your next parents.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

23) Are our souls restricted in what they can express on their host? And then of course, what's the cutoff point of creatures imbued with souls?

I don't understand the question. Do animals have the same capability to be reborn as humans? Yes.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

24) Do rats have souls? Bees? Roaches? Bacteria? Viruses? Replicating proteins like Mad Cow?

Nope, not even you have one.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

25) Even if you restrict reincarnation to just humans; at what point in the human evolutionary chain was the first soul imbued?

There was no thought behind it.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

26) How do we explain Hitler heck what karma was he working off???

He just had a lack of empathy for a certain group of people. Many leaders have a lack of empathy for people, it's why they make decisions that get many people killed.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

27) Now how about the idea that the creature you get to inhabit depends on how good you were in your past life. Who keeps track? Who is the great record-keeper that sends you to your new body? What criteria are used? Is it objective, could it be objective? Does it make mistakes? How does it force our souls into the hosts? Could the soul refuse? And you have to wonder; is your fate graded on a curve?

There is no record keeper, there is nothing keeping track. It is simply mind. Depending on your state of desire and clinging to existence at the time of death will determine how you are reborn if at all.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

28) What if everyone in one generation acts perfectly and kindly and loving to everyone?

You probably wouldn't want to leave it.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

29) Surely the less desirable bodies are still being born and need to be inhabited.

Need to be?

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

30)) Would a couple of hugs be the difference between a hawk and a slug?

I don't think slugs like hugs.

Alan McDougall;101207 wrote:

Etc , etc , etc adinfinitum adinfinitum

Some of your questions are considered by me to be null since you have to transcend the concept of an eternal essence or soul. The Buddha strongly refuted such a thing existing. He said if such a thing did exist you would never have an opportunity to transcend life and death. The fact that we have no soul allows us the chance to.

If you don't believe me. Pick up a copy of what the buddha taught.

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@Alan McDougall,

Hi Krumple

So you are a Buddhist who believes the greatest thing is to loose yourself within the cosmic mind. Strangely you don't believe in a soul, thus by extrapolation you can not believe in GOD

What then is MIND is it matter??

I respect your right to believe what you want to believe, but what I find hard to accept is that you are making statements based on a belief system as if they were fact

I am interested, what is the source of your beliefs

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall;101215 wrote:

So you are a Buddhist who believes the greatest thing is to loose yourself within the cosmic mind.

I am not a Buddhist.

Alan McDougall;101215 wrote:

Strangely you don't believe in a soul, thus by extrapolation you can not believe in GOD

Even if there was a soul I probably still wouldn't believe in a god.

Alan McDougall;101215 wrote:

What then is MIND is it matter??

Yeah it is the coagulation of form. Without form there is no mind.

Alan McDougall;101215 wrote:

I respect your right to believe what you want to believe, but what I find hard to accept is that you are making statements based on a belief system as if they were fact

Nope, simply gave you what the doctrine teaches. Is it fact? That is for you to decide. I never even said I accept it.

Alan McDougall;101215 wrote:

I am interested, what is the source of your beliefs

You wake up every day into this realm of existence yet you are constantly struggling to reach this thing you have never known in this existence. That to me is nothing more than insanity. It points to the flaw in the human psyche that to exist in chaos is just to overwhelming. There must be something that will make sense of all this. If that is your comfort, then no matter what words are spoken, you'll remain fixed and gripped to your security blanket called god.

I don't believe in a god, because I have no use for such a thing.

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My difficulty with karma and reincarnation

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