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Death an inconvenient truth

 
 
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 11:00 am
@xris,
xris;98716 wrote:
The worship of nature and the certainty of new life. The spirit of life. Im not sure but it may be that our informed life spirit may live on in some manner.


= false certainty and delusion to retain convenience.

---------- Post added 10-20-2009 at 01:14 PM ----------

Alan McDougall;98700 wrote:
I would dispute strongly that there is no life after death. I have had a profound near death experience just like millions of others and we don't think there is life after death we KNOW THERE IS LIFE AFTER DEATH

And the near death experience is not an illusion delusion based on oxygen starvation to the brain or any other reason based on brain chemistry , it is the soul/mind/consciousness/awareness leaving the body and entering a different realm of existence. If I had not had the experience I would most likely have dismissed it for myself but I cannot deny the realty of what I saw


Interesting . . . your OP seems to imply that you feel like the hope of an afterlife is simply used as a sedative for the fear of death.

You claim to know that there is a life after death, but your proposition is meaningless to me if it cannot be objectively verified. Subjective experience is no solid ground for the making of a proposition. If one has faith in the subjective experience argument, anything can be claimed to be true and we should believe in the claims based on the erroneous idea of subjective realism (or mystical idealism). There is a moral aspect to my approach to epistemology.

You have some audacity to say that near death experiences are not induced by oxygen deprivation and changes in brain chemistry. You see, unlike your "proposition" that these experiences are induced by an ill-defined, immaterial soul, the proposition that they are induced by oxygen deprivation and changes in brain chemistry can be demonstrated in a lab.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 11:39 am
@hue-man,
false certainty, ummm when did i say i was certain?
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 11:44 am
@xris,
xris;98804 wrote:
false certainty, ummm when did i say i was certain?


"The worship of nature and the certainty of new life."
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 11:59 am
@hue-man,
hue-man;98805 wrote:
"The worship of nature and the certainty of new life."
So next spring your not expecting it to have sprung?
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 12:05 pm
@xris,
xris;98807 wrote:
So next spring your not expecting it to have sprung?


If by new life you meant new seasons, or some metaphorical self-transformation, then you should have been more specific. The obscurity of language (especially religious language) is a philosophical problem for a reason.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 12:15 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;98810 wrote:
If by new life you meant new seasons, or some metaphorical self-transformation, then you should have been more specific. The obscurity of language (especially religious language) is a philosophical problem for a reason.
What religion? you usually have to believe in some divine entity to have a religion, i ain't got one. For me a pagan is an acceptance rather than a belief. We accept the cycles of life and death, our place in nature and the spirit of life that surges through all living things. Im not dogmatic, or should I say i try not to be, so if you find anything objectionable about my beliefs, then feel free to complain or question them.
Rubix Cube
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 12:46 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;95433 wrote:
Carl Marx said that religion is the Opium of the masses and maybe he was right. But if religion gives a person hope that we live on in some form or the other after we die(Even if we don't) what is so wrong with that calming opiate?


When Marx said that religion was the opiate for the masses he meant it to be taken positively. At that time opium was used in medicine as an anesthetic, granting relief to patients undergoing surgery or dealing with terminal disease. Most importantly, however, opium was used for treating cholera, a common (and deadly) disease which mostly struck the lower/working class. People who interpret this quote today often fail to realize that in Marx's time, Opium was legal in most of the world and did not hold the same social stigma as it does today. With that in mind, I believe (and I believe that Marx would agree) that religion, in the form of faith, is an inherently good force in Society.
0 Replies
 
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 01:29 pm
@xris,
xris;98814 wrote:
What religion? you usually have to believe in some divine entity to have a religion, i ain't got one. For me a pagan is an acceptance rather than a belief. We accept the cycles of life and death, our place in nature and the spirit of life that surges through all living things. Im not dogmatic, or should I say i try not to be, so if you find anything objectionable about my beliefs, then feel free to complain or question them.


The divine entity for you is nature. You exalt nature as a god-like or divine entity that should be worshiped as if it actually cares about you. That's what I object to, but I don't have much of a beef with nature worshiping pantheists. If you're truly a pagan (or neopagan) then you are apart of a religious group.

I appreciate the beauty and intellectual symbolism I find in the condition we call nature, but I don't worship it. In my opinion, only a conscious, volitional being deserves to be worshiped, but then again I would never worship another person.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 01:47 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;98830 wrote:
The divine entity for you is nature. You exalt nature as a god-like or divine entity that should be worshiped as if it actually cares about you. That's what I object to, but I don't have much of a beef with nature worshiping pantheists. If you're truly a pagan (or neopagan) then you apart of a religious group.

I appreciate the beauty and intellectual symbolism I find in the condition we call nature, but I don't worship it. In my opinion, only a conscious, volitional being deserves to be worshiped, but then again I would never worship another person.
I dont worship in the manner that could be described as seeing it as an entity. It does not care for me in any direct manner only in that it provides life. If you say im not a pagan then thats fine with me but im not a pantheist because they always appear confused about their true feelings. If you have ever wondered at the night sky or enjoyed the spring blossom on the trees , then to me you have worshipped nature.
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 01:51 pm
@xris,
xris;98835 wrote:
I dont worship in the manner that could be described as seeing it as an entity. It does not care for me in any direct manner only in that it provides life. If you say im not a pagan then thats fine with me but im not a pantheist because they always appear confused about their true feelings. If you have ever wondered at the night sky or enjoyed the spring blossom on the trees , then to me you have worshipped nature.


You seem to be using the term worship more for affect than for specificity. What you're talking about is more properly termed as appreciation. Nature brings not only life, but also death and misfortune.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 02:34 pm
@hue-man,
hue-man;98838 wrote:
You seem to be using the term worship more for affect than for specificity. What you're talking about is more properly termed as appreciation. Nature brings not only life, but also death and misfortune.
As i said its the acceptance of life and death, it has no favourites or any enemies. I appreciate a good tune ,a nice meal but the wonder of nature is more than appreciation.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 05:53 pm
@Alan McDougall,
I think the only real question is whether we are really alive now, not whether there is life in the hereafter. I think if one were truly alive during the time of life there would be no concern with what happens afterwards.
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Tue 20 Oct, 2009 09:42 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;98876 wrote:
I think the only real question is whether we are really alive now, not whether there is life in the hereafter. I think if one were truly alive during the time of life there would be no concern with what happens afterwards.


I hear you there. There's no question that we're truly alive from a biological standpoint. The question is whether or not we're living a life worth living, and dreaming of the otherworldly is certainly not the way to do it.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 01:44 am
@hue-man,
hue-man;98797 wrote:
= false certainty and delusion to retain convenience.

---------- Post added 10-20-2009 at 01:14 PM ----------



Interesting . . . your OP seems to imply that you feel like the hope of an afterlife is simply used as a sedative for the fear of death.

You claim to know that there is a life after death, but your proposition is meaningless to me if it cannot be objectively verified. Subjective experience is no solid ground for the making of a proposition. If one has faith in the subjective experience argument, anything can be claimed to be true and we should believe in the claims based on the erroneous idea of subjective realism (or mystical idealism). There is a moral aspect to my approach to epistemology.

You have some audacity to say that near death experiences are not induced by oxygen deprivation and changes in brain chemistry. You see, unlike your "proposition" that these experiences are induced by an ill-defined, immaterial soul, the proposition that they are induced by oxygen deprivation and changes in brain chemistry can be demonstrated in a lab.


Well you will be able to verify whether there is life after death sooner or later, try suicide like I did or wait until that unpleasant certain day when you will and must die.
William
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 04:17 am
@Alan McDougall,
We are all near death. It's all around us. It's just how we define it, is what matters; negatively or positively. Not contemplating it, is by far the best thing because you are going to eventually wear out. You will exhaust yourself. Why contemplate that which is destined to happen? It has to do with the rate at which you live your life and how much friction you cause or that which is inflicted upon you; that is what determines how long you live and the quality of that life. Not just physically, but mentally as well.

Everything in nature is cyclical. Are we any different? No, of course not. The universe doesn't waste anything, it refines it. It betters itself and travels in one direction. Do we retard that? No. We retard ourselves if we dread our own death, in that we try to "hold on to it" because it is familiar to us. Like one poster maintain a bird in the hand is better. Not by a long shot. You have to let that bird go, or you imprison it.

The reason we don't remember our past is because there is no life there. It's dead and gone forever. The only reason we go there is in an effort to find out who we are. We will never figure that out and when we back up and go there, we retard our own growth and more or less get stuck in limbo; between life and death, without fully realizing and appreciating the life we do have.

[QUOTE Alan] We are all born with a fatal ailment and we call it life, the outcome of which is always death. [END QUOTE]

It only become an ailment, if you are "sick" of it; and we all know what sickness is and there are a number of people who profit from that sickness. That's the real problem.

[QUOTE Alan] Do you think death and the possible annihilation of self into the eternal abyss is the ultimate fear of humans?[END QUOTE]

Alan, perhaps these words mean something to you, but I can't imagine what they mean; "annihilation, eternal abyss, ultimate fear", and for those who do imagine such, to me, indicates a "sickness/negativeness" they are feeling in the life they have. Now that's not a bad thing, it's more of what we call a "normal thing" and that is what is sad. We just accept it and do all we can to prevent it. There's a profit to be made there also, don't forget.

This life we have to "pay" for, is killing us. I know, broken record, same old song, huh? I will keep pounding those keys and maintain that tune until the day I recycle; you can count on it. Now will I come back here? That depends on whether or not I have anything left to offer. Whether I do or not is not left up to me and that is why I don't worry about it and maintain my balance. I will go with the flow where ever it leads in a positive direction as I will resist anything negative that others tend to throw my way. That's a load others will have to unburden themselves of, yet I will endeavor to help in any way that I can to assist them and if I can, I will exhaust myself gladly and look forward to coming back and sharing that life.

Leave death alone and you will begin to live your life, what there is of it for nature will take it's course no matter what you do and when your are done, you are done; and there is nothing you can do about it. It will maintain it's balance and the load it carries; if we are not in balance with it, it will make the necessary adjustments. That's the gravity of the situation.

Most are carrying more load than they are supposed to carry and we will do all we can to lessen it as we try to "off load" it to others. If we were more balanced we would be able to carry the load without effort and all would begin to live life in such a way all will enjoy.

William
0 Replies
 
hue-man
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Oct, 2009 07:34 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;98939 wrote:
Well you will be able to verify whether there is life after death sooner or later, try suicide like I did or wait until that unpleasant certain day when you will and must die.


Plenty of people nearly die or actually do end up clinically dead and they report having no near death experiences. Most people who's hearts stop report it as simply being non-existence. No offense Alan, you're a cool guy and everything, but you don't sound mentally stable. You call life the ailment we were all born with, and you suggest that try suicide so that my brain can be oxygen deprived and chemically imbalanced enough to have the hallucination we call NDE. You need to use the pain and trial you've acquired in the past to make you stronger and wiser.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 05:32 am
@Alan McDougall,
William I agree that the universe recycles everything, but are you suggesting an eternal process of physical earth bound reincarnation.

We do live after we die but not here on earth we enter an infinite progression of learning and evolving finally to realise who we really are, that being a separate yet integrated awareness, with the cosmic mind or source of all reality
William
 
  1  
Reply Thu 22 Oct, 2009 09:54 am
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;99183 wrote:
William I agree that the universe recycles everything, but are you suggesting an eternal process of physical earth bound reincarnation.


Absolutely. We need to get it right here first. No one escapes as it is believed and goes to a remote "heaven". There are "charmed souls" here to guide who do not experience the agony so many do and live in peace without spectacle.

Alan McDougall;99183 wrote:
We do live after we die, but not here on earth, we enter an infinite progression of learning and evolving finally to realize who we really are, that being a separate yet integrated awareness, with the cosmic mind or source of all reality


Yes, but you do that right here. What makes you think it is not here on Earth? Do you honestly think we are enlighten enough to "invade" another realm not of this Earth? I afraid that is just not how it works, Alan. That is one of the greatest fallacies and one I could not accept even as a young boy. It creates a "holier than thou" attitude that offers condescension, hate and conflict as we begin to judge one against the other as to who is right and who is wrong and a separation leading to a disregard for all we do have. That just won't get it. It's convenient to think that; but it is wrong. Once we become "civil (real) lized" will be begin to truly "sense" it all the way we were meant to. Contemplating death, just hinders us ..........a lot.

It's like going to school. Once we all get it right, we will begin to graduate to higher learning. That is the voyage. To reach that degree here. All our martyrs made spectacles of themselves as if they could change the way things are, so quickly, and were penalized for it, for no one knows everything. We do not learn from martyrs but from those who caused their death and why they died. That's all.

No one feels as you do Alan, as no one is you but you. We all have our individual footprint. The more you depend on that flawed history that is represented to us and go there for your own reasons, the more confused one becomes. There is you, in the past; but it is a different you and you would not recognize you if you met you personally. You are better than that had you not open that door to the past. That is our problem and why we keep repeating it. We try to find reason and solace in the past that no longer exists as we try to make sense of it, we destroy the "new sense"we were born with and become a "nuisance" to this existence until nothing makes "no sense" of all becomes nonsense. Let's hope we don't go that far.

Universally, we just got here. I know that is hard to imagine, but it is true and we must reach a "common sense" as that will put us in alignment with that universe we are a part of, for we are NOT apart from it.

Perhaps there is life elsewhere, I don't concern myself with that. It is the here and now that I focus on and those who dwell here with me, as I learn from them as they help guide me in the good, the bad and the ugly of the reality we, thinking separately, have created. Call it "inside information" I have gathered from those "outside". Ha! :a-ok:

I hoped this helped,

Your friend,
William
0 Replies
 
 

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