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The mystical Copenhagen Interpretation

 
 
NoOne phil
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 11:56 am
@Exebeche,
Exebeche;65904 wrote:
The Copenhagen Interpretation gives back to humanity what the 'Age of Enlightenment' has taken away from them.
Even though the Copenhagen Interpretation does not say anything about consciousness it opened a door for mystical interpretations.
'The observer' being a central issue of the theory, the universe can be interpreted as something that only exists if there is a conscious mind observing it.
The western society has been thirsting for an idea like that.
I see two major insults coming from the age of enlightenment that had to be compensated:
First the copernican principle literally kicked humans out of the center of the universe.
Historians sometimes talk about a copernican shock.
Second the Darwinian evolutionory theory which showed humans how close to apes (and other animals) they actually are.
These two factors plus being left behind in a universe without god created a vacuum that has been waiting to be filled somehow.
The Copenhagen Interpretation turned out to be perfect for that.
If the world only exists when there is an observer, it puts us back into the center of the universe.
We are not only part of the universe, we are even creating it by our observation. The existence of the universe even depends on us.
This idea is filling the gap of meaninglessness.
No matter how much truth lies in this concept: It is clear why it has been welcomed with a warm embrace.



huh? I simply flatter myself by not cleaning the mirrors I use. It is so much easier.

I do feel a bit uneasy about the idea that man takes from man or gives to man anything at all. I have grown rather fond of the self-referential contradiction which is why I actually fund its vacations from me.
0 Replies
 
Exebeche
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 05:44 pm
@Whoever,
Whoever;93510 wrote:

Yes, this is the problem for my theory. If it's true it's unfalsifiable, in which case it isn't a theory, in which case it of no interest to you even if it's true. What you are suggesting is that science is not interested in the truth, and sometimes I think you're right.

Even though your argument might be brilliant, you certainly agree that science is interested in finding truth.
From a logical perspective however it gets complicated very quickly.
Even just finding truth and finding THE truth already creates an essential conflict.
That's why science tries to work based on the most simple compromise which is logic.
Thus accepting that it might not find THE truth, but at least excluding what is not proven to be true.
Excluding what is not true does not necessarily provide truth but it at least gets us rid of error.
Accepting ideas that are not falsifiable would mean accepting any rubbish that comes across, which would lead to an infinite number of useless theories that are even contradicting each others.
Obviously this can not be the way of finding truth.
A true hypothesis can be excluded by this method in the first place.
But it still has a lot of open doors to get back inside, whereas junk will remain excluded.
Which means any theory that gets rejected from science can get back when it's not junk. Your theory included.

The theory of atoms has been laughed at in the late days of the 19th century and it turned out to be the most relevant for the following one.
This shows how science in a way can be ignorant for truth. And there are lots of examples like that.
I am not a disciple of science.
However some principles of reasoning are not bound to wether someone is a believer of religion or science.

Exebeche;93130 wrote:

This is the difference between science and mysticism.

Whoever;93510 wrote:

I don't think there is one, just a misunderstanding.

Of course there is one. There are many.
The laws of science are deducted from observations of the outside world whereas the ideas of mysticism are deducted from observations of the individuals' inside world which is totally individual and varies from one person to another, as oppose to scientific observations. To name only the most significant difference that comes to my mind.
I guess i know what you mean however.
Science can be practised like religion.
There is something like an orthodox scientism. Actually any scientism is orthodox, even when the theories are contradictory.
The widespread blindness of scientism (considering itself orthodox) is in fact a problem for finding truth.
As i mentioned above, there are countless examples of science being ignorant for truth.
However this doesn't mean that science does not function as a tool of finding truth.
Regardless of what believe one has, may it be Einstein's or Plato's, the criterion of falsifiability is a logical one, and as such so basic that it draws a clear line between truth and wish.
When a theory does not serve this criterion we can not blame science guilty for the ignorance of being blind to any possible truth.
Falsifiability is a major logical criterion. I can't help it.
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 07:45 pm
@Exebeche,
[QUOTE=jeeprs;93243] The meaning of 'really exists' is very important here. It is a very short leap from there to 'nothing exists, nothing matters, nothing is real', which is nihilism. [/QUOTE] Welcome to deconstructive postmodernism.

[QUOTE=jeeprs;93243] I think the understanding we are reaching for here is that nothing exists absolutely, or in its own right. It seems like a milder claim, but for scientific realism it is perhaps equally shocking. Because in many respects the whole project of Enlightenment physics was to find a 'truly existent objective entity'. [/QUOTE] Things only "exist" in relationship to other "things".

[QUOTE=jeeprs;93243] I still think that when this project failed, materialism actually was doomed at that moment. The basic tenet of materialism is after all that there are only bodies in motion. [/QUOTE] In the age of relativity physics and quantum mechanics reality is better thought of as "events in relation" than "substances in motion."

[QUOTE=jeeprs;93243] Now we find the bodies are actually 'sunya', empty. They have no ultimate determinate essence or substance. They can play with words now or say that 'matter is really energy anyway' and so on but in important ways I think the game is over. [/QUOTE] The Newtonian materialist mechanistic deterministic view of the world as particles in motion (inert and insensate) obeying fixed deterministic natural laws still dominates even though subsequent science undermines its validity as a conception of "ultimate reality".

[QUOTE=jeeprs;93243] So we are back again to appearances and reality. The more things change, the more they stay the same. But I don't mind it, I like a bit of mystery. Gives your imagination a bit of room to manouvre. [/QUOTE] The "Adventure of Ideas" is fun; but in philosophy one must use reason and not ignore the facts of experience.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 08:26 pm
@prothero,
prothero;93664 wrote:

Things only "exist" in relationship to other "things".

.



That implies that it is impossible for just one thing to exist. And that seems to me false. (Why do you place exist and things between quotes? If you are using those terms in some special sense (which is what those quotes indicate) could you tell me what that special sense is?
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 08:48 pm
@Exebeche,
I think it is quite impossible for just one thing to exist. You might imagine just one thing existing, but then, you are imagining it, so already we have two!
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 11:04 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;93670 wrote:
That implies that it is impossible for just one thing to exist. And that seems to me false. (Why do you place exist and things between quotes? If you are using those terms in some special sense (which is what those quotes indicate) could you tell me what that special sense is?

Well the term "exist" is subject to interpretation as is "thing".
I am not a materialist so my conception of the terms would be different than that of anyone with materialism as a fundamental world view.

There is no meaning to an (object,substance,matter) except in its relationship to other things.

Just as the notion of enduring substance (outside of process, change and time) has no meaning and certainly no "existence".

We do not percieve anything outside the concepts of space and time which are relative relationships.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Sep, 2009 11:22 pm
@Exebeche,
A quote from A. N. Whitehead:

Quote:
there exists "a fixed scientific cosmology which presupposes the ultimate fact of an irreducible brute matter, or material, spread through space in a flux of configurations. In itself such a material is senseless, valueless, purposeless. It just does what it does do, following a fixed routine imposed by external relations which do not spring from the nature of its being. It is this assumption that I call 'scientific materialism.' Also it is an assumption which I shall challenge as being entirely unsuited to the scientific situation at which we have now arrived."

The assumption of scientific materialism is effective in many contexts, says Whitehead, only because it directs our attention to a certain class of problems that lend themselves to analysis within this framework. However, scientific materialism is less successful when addressing issues of teleology and when trying to develop a comprehensive, integrated picture of the universe as a whole. According to Whitehead, recognition that the world is organic rather than materialistic is therefore essential, and this change in viewpoint can result as easily from attempts to understand modern physics as from attempts to understand human psychology and teleology. Says Whitehead, "Mathematical physics presumes in the first place an electromagnetic field of activity pervading space and time. The laws which condition this field are nothing else than the conditions observed by the general activity of the flux of the world, as it individualises itself in the events."

The end result is that Whitehead concludes that "nature is a structure of evolving processes. The reality is the process."


From Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 26 Sep, 2009 11:08 am
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;93687 wrote:
A quote from A. N. Whitehead:
From Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy


Whitehead makes for difficult reading but his system of thought is I think entirely compatible with both modern science and human experience.
In the end there is much to be gained from Whitehead. Probaby particulary useful to those who feel drawn to eastern philosophy and eastern religous practice but would like to ground those intutions in Western philosophy and science.
0 Replies
 
Whoever
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2009 01:47 pm
@Exebeche,
Exebeche;93640 wrote:
Even though your argument might be brilliant, you certainly agree that science is interested in finding truth.
From a logical perspective however it gets complicated very quickly.
Even just finding truth and finding THE truth already creates an essential conflict. That's why science tries to work based on the most simple compromise which is logic. Thus accepting that it might not find THE truth, but at least excluding what is not proven to be true.

This is the ideal, no doubt, but in reality western metaphysics and physics do not follow logic, and do not exclude what is demonstrably absurd. This is their entire problem, the whole reason we still don't have a fundamental theory of anything. If they did follow logic then they would be mysticism. It is only this reluctance to follow logic that makes them inconsistent with mysticism. This may seem an unlikely claim, but it's not difficult to verify its truth.

It has been proved many times, most famously by Nagarjuna (the founder of the Middle Way schools of Buddhism) and by Francis Bradley (Appearance and Reality), that all positive metaphysical position are logically indefensible. This is taken for granted by most philosophers these days. By abduction this leaves just two positions; Dialethism, which is logically indefensible, and mysticism, for which all positive positions would be logically indefensible because they are false.

This is not well known, obviously, but it's known to everybody who doesn't reject mystcism out of hand and looks into these issues. If we accept the results of logic then we are a mystical philosopher. Metaphysics is surprisingly straighforward in mysticism. There are no 'problems of philosophy', we just believe what reason tells us. Then we find ourselves following in the footsteps of Kant, Hegel, Bradley and their like.

Quote:
Accepting ideas that are not falsifiable would mean accepting any rubbish that comes across, which would lead to an infinite number of useless theories that are even contradicting each others.

It's extremely difficult to come up with a theory of everything which is unfalsifiable. Have you tried? I know of only one such theory, and am unable to invent another. I suppose theism could be called unfalsifiable, but most forms of it give rise to contradictions, it is just that theists ignore them.

Unfalsifiable propositions are often trivial in what they claim. But Kant calls the unfalsifiability of scepticism the 'scandal of philosophy.' We have to watch out that we don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. A true theory of everything would not be falsifiable. My metaphysical position is unfalsifiable, and it is the only one that is. I think this it is suggestive. At any rate, we can't assume that the doctrine of the mystics is false simply because we can't prove it is in logic. This would not be science or philosophy.

Quote:
A true hypothesis can be excluded by this method in the first place. But it still has a lot of open doors to get back inside, whereas junk will remain excluded. Which means any theory that gets rejected from science can get back when it's not junk. Your theory included.

It's already back, and never really went away. In consciousness studies it's called Relative Phenomenalism. Bradley calls it Absolute Idealism. I call it the doctrine of mysticism. It's never been formally rejected by science, like, say, the Copernican theory, or philostogen, it's just been assumed that it's nonsense. I think it's time this asumption was examined scientifically.

Quote:
The laws of science are deducted from observations of the outside world whereas the ideas of mysticism are deducted from observations of the individuals' inside world which is totally individual and varies from one person to another, as oppose to scientific observations. To name only the most significant difference that comes to my mind.

The mystic does not make the mistake of observing just one or the other. Nobody can ignore the evidence of their senses. It is easy to verify that mysticism is not only about exploring the inner world. If it did it would leave a vast part of the world unexamined.

Quote:
Science can be practised like religion.

This is all too clear. And vice versa, which is not so clear.

Quote:
There is something like an orthodox scientism. Actually any scientism is orthodox, even when the theories are contradictory.

Nothing wrong with orthodoxy, imo, but a lot wrong with dogma. I can never quite pin down what scientism is. It seems to be opposite of science.

Quote:
Regardless of what belief one has, may it be Einstein's or Plato's, the criterion of falsifiability is a logical one, and as such so basic that it draws a clear line between truth and wish. When a theory does not serve this criterion we can not blame science guilty for the ignorance of being blind to any possible truth. Falsifiability is a major logical criterion. I can't help it.

I understand what you're suggesting, and why, but I believe it's incorrect. It looks like Popper's view but it isn't. Rather, it harks back to Carnap's logical positivism. Are you sure you're not talking about testability. That's a slightly different issue. It's possible for a theory to be unfalsifiable in logic but testable in physics, and the doctrine of mysticism is just such a theory. We can never say that a theory is unfalsifiable in physics, we can only say that it hasn't been falsified so far.

I agree that unfalsifiable theories are uninteresting in physics, but this is not the case where the theory makes testable predictions.

---------- Post added 09-29-2009 at 09:03 PM ----------


prothero;93748 wrote:
Whitehead makes for difficult reading but his system of thought is I think entirely compatible with both modern science and human experience.
In the end there is much to be gained from Whitehead. Probaby particulary useful to those who feel drawn to eastern philosophy and eastern religous practice but would like to ground those intutions in Western philosophy and science.

I agree, for what it's worth, although personally I wouldn't recommend him as a place to start.

It may be worth noting here in passing that Whitehead is speaking about Nature, and not about the universe, when he says, 'The reality is the process.' This statement is consistent with a mystical view only if we give Nature an ontological grounding and assume that these processes are underlain by a real phenomenon. The idea that the universe is no more than fields on fields is incomprehensible. In mysticism the term 'reality' is usually reserved for the source of these processes.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2009 03:38 pm
@Exebeche,
one thing that has always struck me about a 'theory of everything' is that it must contain a major recursion, because the theory would be part of what is being described (being part of everything). So how does a theory describe itself? What we're running up against in all this is actually the limitations of thought itself, of logic itself. Thought is a great instrument, as far as it goes, but there are places it can't go. Nagarjuna himself was well aware of this, it is the basic premis he taught from. The madhyamika dialectic is based first and foremost on the 'Noble Silence' of the Buddha, which was the Buddha's response to such questions as whether the universe has a beginning, whether the Buddha continues to exist after death, and other questions we would usually regard as 'metaphysical'. But in the context of the Buddhist tradition, this is an invitation to go beyond thought through dhyana wherein thought can really discover its own nature and limitations. You can call it 'mysticism' or whatever you like, but that is also not really the point. There is something much more important at stake in all of this. This is that reality is something lived, it is not in the end a series of philosophical abstractions and scientific measurements. Scientific analysis can and will probably be pursued to the nth degree but past a certain point, we need to return to the fact of our humanity and work out meanings and values by which we can live peacefully on this earth. Sorry if that sounds like a sermon, i am just trying to touch ground somewhere.
memester
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Sep, 2009 08:32 pm
@jeeprs,
jeeprs;94315 wrote:
one thing that has always struck me about a 'theory of everything' is that it must contain a major recursion, because the theory would be part of what is being described (being part of everything). So how does a theory describe itself? What we're running up against in all this is actually the limitations of thought itself, of logic itself.


I think maybe it's being said in some of the articles that the "everything" you mention is a function of the organism.
0 Replies
 
Whoever
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 04:46 pm
@jeeprs,
Jeeprs - I don't entirely agree with your last post.

Logic can go further than the Buddha's silence, as Nagarjuna shows, but I know what you mean. It certainly cannot prove anything about reality, as Aristotle was careful to acknowledge. But I believe that it can go a lot further than we usually imagine it can. I find it difficult to explain why, since there are so many issues involved.

By abduction it is possible to prove only what the truth is not, and this is all Nagarjuna sets out to do in his Fundamental Wisdom, or Bradley in his Appearance and Reality. This is not the end of mysticism, but it is the end of metaphysics. This is because we do not follow logic in metaphysics. Once we have elimated all false views we do not concude that what is left is the true view and go on to use logic to deduce its properties. This is because what's left is a neutral metaphysical position, and this is mysticism. So we deny the conclusion that Nagarjuna so carefully proves and assume that logic is not to be trusted. Only be ignoring logic can we avoid mysticism.

For a promiment case in point, in consciousness studies we see David Chalmer's using abductive logic to conclude that mind-matter only theories do not work, that another ingredient is required, and being led to a theory that is almost identical to Nagarjuna's theory of emptiness, and then concluding with breathtaking perversity that mysticism is not implied. He proposes instead that we must settle for a nonreductive theory called naturalistic dualism, for which the universe would inexplicable. He challenges his peers to find this missing ingredient, but he if he followed his own logic he'd find it himself. Then his theory would be the same as Nagarjuna's, which is not nonreductive. But this would mean conceding the truth of the Buddha's teachings, so we are stuck with the 'hard' problem of consciousness.

Another relevant issue. Unlike any other cosmological doctrine, with the possible exception of Dialethism, the logical and ontological schemes of mysticism are precisely isomorphic. This means that it is possible to test its logic by examining the scientific evidence, and to derive predictions for physics from an examination of its logic. This makes it a highly unusual subject for logical or scientific investigation, and more susceptible to it than it might seem.

jeeprs;94315 wrote:
one thing that has always struck me about a 'theory of everything' is that it must contain a major recursion, because the theory would be part of what is being described (being part of everything).

The solution is given by George Spencer Brown in Laws of Form. It is to abandon the medieval logic of Frege and Russell, which is not that of Aristotle but a simplified version, and to employ instead a logic of contradictory complementarity. This creates a formal system that is not subject to incompleteness. This is the same logic as we use in quantum mechanics, but with an extra ingredient. Brown uses imaginary variables for his model of the universe, but this is equivalent to modifying logic as physicists do for QM. The result is a logic and ontology which is complete and consistent, and which explains the laws governing the emergence of forms.

Quote:
The madhyamika dialectic is based first and foremost on the 'Noble Silence' of the Buddha, which was the Buddha's response to such questions as whether the universe has a beginning, whether the Buddha continues to exist after death, and other questions we would usually regard as 'metaphysical'.

Perhaps one could say that Nagarjuna showed that the dialectic can be used to explain the Buddha's silence.

Quote:
But in the context of the Buddhist tradition, this is an invitation to go beyond thought through dhyana wherein thought can really discover its own nature and limitations. You can call it 'mysticism' or whatever you like, but that is also not really the point. There is something much more important at stake in all of this. This is that reality is something lived, it is not in the end a series of philosophical abstractions and scientific measurements. Scientific analysis can and will probably be pursued to the nth degree but past a certain point, we need to return to the fact of our humanity and work out meanings and values by which we can live peacefully on this earth. Sorry if that sounds like a sermon, i am just trying to touch ground somewhere.

I have a problem with this. It gives the impression that at a certain point on our journey we must abandon logic for a return to values and peace on earth. If I were a sceptic I'd regard this as a cop-out, an appeal to faith.

In fact it is possible to take logic and metaphysics all the way to the conclusion that the universe is a unity, and then to use this as an axiom from which to logically derive a systematic cosmology. It is because it is possible to derive the mystical cosmology from this axiom of unity that Nagarjuna and Bradley go to so much trouble to prove it. If it is not true then the neither are the teachings of the Buddha. If it is true then so are they. All we can prove in metaphysics is that every other possibility is absurd. All we have to do for mysticism is assume that this is because they are false.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Wed 30 Sep, 2009 05:48 pm
@Exebeche,
Thanks, Whoever (no irony intended.) Great post. However at a certain point in our journey, we must abandon everything. And if you really were a skeptic, that is what you would do. (What you think of as 'skepticism' is actually a defense of of your sense of normality - but that is the way skepticism is generally understood nowadays). The Greek skeptics were not after an intellectual solution, they pursued ataraxia, tranquility, and according to many authors, learned their method from Nagarjuna. (See The Shape of Ancient Thought, Thomas McEvilly) Neither they nor Nagarjuna are interested in verbal formulations or discussions such as the one we are having (even though I personally think what you're saying has got a great deal in it). What they were after is beyond thought, or transcendent (as in the transcendental nature of the Tathagata).

Have to go to work, but very interesting, thanks.
Whoever
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2009 12:26 pm
@jeeprs,
Yes, an interesting discussion. We clearly agree on the important things, but I think we're having a misunderstanding.

Quote:
However at a certain point in our journey, we must abandon everything. And if you really were a skeptic, that is what you would do.

No, I meant someone sceptical of mysticism. Thus only a non-sceptic would think of abandoning everything. My point was that somone sceptical of mysticism will interpret an appeal to the limits of logic as an appeal to faith or some untestable higher knowledge or intuition. I just wanted to say that logic is capable taking us further than you suggested. To me logic is a sure path to the philosophical truth, but I'm not suggesting it's any more than this. I wasn't talking about scepticism as a philosophical position.

Quote:
The Greek skeptics were not after an intellectual solution, they pursued ataraxia, tranquility, and according to many authors, learned their method from Nagarjuna. (See The Shape of Ancient Thought, Thomas McEvilly) Neither they nor Nagarjuna are interested in verbal formulations or discussions such as the one we are having (even though I personally think what you're saying has got a great deal in it). What they were after is beyond thought, or transcendent (as in the transcendental nature of the Tathagata).

Well, I'd say Nagarjuna's proof and theory of emptiness proves he was interested. Maybe it depends on how we look at it, as it usually does.

Perhaps you're assuming that my emphasis on logic means that I think logic can replace experience. This is definitely not the case. I can't say I've abandoned everything, unfortunately, but I'm well aware that I must. I'm a fan of Hongzhi's Zen.

In my universe logic would get us all the way to the bank of the river and up to our noses in the water, the Buddha's teachings and methods would serve as a raft with which to cross to the other side, and then we'd be on our own. I expect you'll agree with this.

I just wish it was a lot easier to stay on the raft.
0 Replies
 
jeeprs
 
  1  
Reply Thu 1 Oct, 2009 03:09 pm
@Exebeche,
I think we are pretty much on the same page. Perhaps my wariness about the efficacy of logic is because mine is not very strong! I am certainly aware that there are highly proficient thinkers who seem to be able to take it much further than myself. But then, I was never very good at maths either.

Whoever;94475 wrote:
I have a problem with this. It gives the impression that at a certain point on our journey we must abandon logic for a return to values and peace on earth. If I were a sceptic I'd regard this as a cop-out, an appeal to faith.


Perhaps it is an 'appeal to faith'. But unlike 'believe and you will be saved' it is more a matter of 'meditate until you understand!' It can't be attained by discursive thinking. Of course, I am completely contradicting myself by sitting here writing this when I should be practising, myself, so I am not really in a position to tell you anything or offer any advice to anyone.

I would say - we're on the same journey, it is indeed hard to 'stay on the raft', and good luck!
Whoever
 
  1  
Reply Fri 2 Oct, 2009 01:29 pm
@jeeprs,
Oh dear. We don't seem to have anything to argue about.
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 3 Oct, 2009 12:21 pm
@Exebeche,
Mostly I think the Copenhagen Interpretation and the results of quantum experiements pointed out a fundamental flaw in the mechanistic deterministic worldview which came about as a result of the success of Newtonian mechanics.

Our concepts about inert insenaties bodies (particles)moving through space and time with specific positions and velocites are wrong. In place of this picture of the universe, though, we have what? Our minds do not appear structured to comprehend the quantum world. That which we can not comprehend becomes mystical or mystery.

Quantum mechanics gives us a mathematical predictive tool (one of the most sucessful predictive theories in science) but it does not give us a conceptual model of how it works. Personally I do not think we will ever be able to conceive how the quantum world works; our minds are not structured to perceive the world that way.

I do think that LaPlace determinsim is no longer tenable either rationally or scientifically. I do think that materialism (the inert insensate particle theory of reality) is wrong and incompatible with quantum reality. These two philosophical speculations have profound implications in worldview and are more compatible with our everyday notions of the commonsensism, hard core assumptions, or the presuppostions of pratice like free will, agency and a responsive world as opposed to the world as a determinsitic machine. So I welcome the problems of the Copenhagen interpretation.
Whoever
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Oct, 2009 04:44 am
@prothero,
I feel it is significant that the only interpretation which is never considered is one consistent with the idea that the universe is a unity. In this case there would be a sense in which it is extended and a sense in which it isn't, and this must be one of the better ways to explain nonlocal correlations.

I notice that one physicist calls the idea that the universe is extended a 'mystical delusion.' In fact this idea is incompatible with mysticism, for which things wouldn't be so simple.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Oct, 2009 07:46 am
@Whoever,
Whoever;95132 wrote:
I feel it is significant that the only interpretation which is never considered is one consistent with the idea that the universe is a unity. In this case there would be a sense in which it is extended and a sense in which it isn't, and this must be one of the better ways to explain nonlocal correlations.

I notice that one physicist calls the idea that the universe is extended a 'mystical delusion.' In fact this idea is incompatible with mysticism, for which things wouldn't be so simple.


Bohm's Implicate Order describes a unified universe in which events, memory, habits, and consciousness are enfolded and unfolded similar to the way waves are enfolded into a hologram.

However, the Implicate Order is an interpretation of Quantum Physics as is the Copenhagen Interpretation. The basis of Bohm's model is his quantum force/particle interpretation which substitutes non-local quantum forces which are guiding particles for the Copenhagen wave/particle collapse interpretation.

However, the Implicate Order model has a metaphysical taste to it that is not appealing to physicists, particularly with the inclusion of a consciousness component. But one very well known and cited physicist, John Bell, was a supporter of further investigation into this theory.

Rich
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Oct, 2009 04:18 pm
@Exebeche,
M (membrane theory) which has replaced string theory also sees the universe as a unified interconnected relational whole. Albeit one with 11 dimensions and multiple universes. Still a vast improvement over mechanistic determinsim.
0 Replies
 
 

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