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Determinism, Free Will, and Law

 
 
hue-man
 
Reply Fri 5 Jun, 2009 04:12 pm
Why blame me? It was all my brain’s fault | Raymond Tallis - Times Online
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Type: Discussion • Score: 0 • Views: 864 • Replies: 12
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Earl phil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 11:20 am
@hue-man,
I think; therefore, I am. I am by what I think. I may stifle myself; I may stifle what I think. We have known for awhile that our mind has urges for us to do something. I may wish to kill someone, but society does not allow that; therefore, I do not kill to appease the people that dislike my actions. Just because we have identified in more scientific terms the causes behind those urges does not mean that it should change our legal system to include those that are unable not to do something that they want.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 11:34 am
@Earl phil,
Doesn't matter if your brain, your heart, your soul, or you mother-in-law made you do it. You did it, and we didn't like it. So off to the pokey you go. If you do it again, we'll do the same. Interesting game.

Rich
0 Replies
 
jgweed
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 12:02 pm
@hue-man,
Even law recognises that sometimes people cannot be held accountable for their actions: pleas of "crimes of passion" or "state of mental deficiency" or "temporary insanity" are seen, if proven, as legitimate "excuses" for actions.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 12:19 pm
@jgweed,
jgweed;67401 wrote:
Even law recognises that sometimes people cannot be held accountable for their actions: pleas of "crimes of passion" or "state of mental deficiency" or "temporary insanity" are seen, if proven, as legitimate "excuses" for actions.


Yes, but in all cases they verdict is guilty. The punishment changes depending upon the whims and wills of those in charge, and how much money the defendants have at their disposal.

Rich
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 12:28 pm
@jgweed,
Relinquish your rights to freedom of choice, become a creature of events.
Let the self become devolved into electrochemical actions, in your squishy subterranean brain.
Causing you to shudder and shake to the determined world of the robotic man.
Give not a hoot for the morals you are taught,just obey the desires that rest in your groin.
Tell the policeman" Its not my doing. im only obeying the commands of my genes, my compulsive determined ego".
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 12:34 pm
@xris,
xris;67408 wrote:
Relinquish your rights to freedom of choice, become a creature of events.
Let the self become devolved into electrochemical actions, in your squishy subterranean brain.
Causing you to shudder and shake to the determined world of the robotic man.
Give not a hoot for the morals you are taught,just obey the desires that rest in your groin.
Tell the policeman" Its not my doing. im only obeying the commands of my genes, my compulsive determined ego".



I don't think it it has to be stark black and white, though I don't mind if someone frames it as such. Am I totally responsible for everything I do. Not really. Someone stepped on my foot while dancing last night. Could I be a more skillful navigator. Probably. I just find better places to dance, where the likelihood of being stepped on is less. It is a matter of judgment of direction I wish to travel.

Each individual has a choice of direction, which are affected by all that surrounds the individual. Sometimes events overwhelm the individual, and that is life. A good sailor can navigate around some storms, but some just overwhelm even the best navigator. And that is life. We try our best, choose our path, and gain skill in navigating, in the best way we know how.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 12:44 pm
@richrf,
richrf;67409 wrote:
I don't think it it has to be stark black and white, though I don't mind if someone frames it as such. Am I totally responsible for everything I do. Not really. Someone stepped on my foot while dancing last night. Could I be a more skillful navigator. Probably. I just find better places to dance, where the likelihood of being stepped on is less. It is a matter of judgment of direction I wish to travel.

Each individual has a choice of direction, which are affected by all that surrounds the individual. Sometimes events overwhelm the individual, and that is life. A good sailor can navigate around some storms, but some just overwhelm even the best navigator. And that is life. We try our best, choose our path, and gain skill in navigating, in the best way we know how.
I dont think free willy can be decided on some twat standing on your foot.Its a bit more complicated than that.Free will would tell you to wear steel toe caps, but then you'd look pretty stupid and no one would come near you, so you would not need them but if you had not .....:perplexed:
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 01:19 pm
@xris,
xris;67412 wrote:
I dont think free willy can be decided on some twat standing on your foot.Its a bit more complicated than that.Free will would tell you to wear steel toe caps, but then you'd look pretty stupid and no one would come near you, so you would not need them but if you had not .....:perplexed:


Quite the point. There are a whole host of factors that affect what I choose to do, what I am constrained in doing (e.g. the availability of steel cap shoes), and the tonnage of the person stepping on me. So it is not really a matter of Free Will. It is a matter of consensus between the direction I would like to go and how it interacts with whatever surrounds me.

Rich
yared phil
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 01:21 pm
@hue-man,
In most of the replies to this posting, the police or the law or society is taken as a deterrent to free will, implying that free individuals will inherently act against the good. This leads to the issue of the inherent nature of man. I see man as Godly, with good intentions, and his/her free will determined by this goodliness. Man's freedom is inseparable from his understanding of duty, and freely acting to express that.
Yared
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 01:23 pm
@richrf,
richrf;67425 wrote:
Quite the point. There are a whole host of factors that affect what I choose to do, what I am constrained in doing (e.g. the availability of steel cap shoes), and the tonnage of the person stepping on me. So it is not really a matter of Free Will. It is a matter of consensus between the direction I would like to go and how it interacts with whatever surrounds me.

Rich
If you had a hundred choices and logic told you to wear size 9 steel toe caped trainers, you could still go bare foot if that random thing called human ability was silly enough.
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 04:57 pm
@yared phil,
yared;67427 wrote:
I see man as Godly, with good intentions, and his/her free will determined by this goodliness. Man's freedom is inseparable from his understanding of duty, and freely acting to express that.
Yared


If you believe that man is essentially good then you might want to read the morning news to convince you otherwise.

As for me, I think everyone has a bit of everything.

Rich
0 Replies
 
richrf
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Jun, 2009 08:53 pm
@xris,
xris;67428 wrote:
If you had a hundred choices and logic told you to wear size 9 steel toe caped trainers, you could still go bare foot if that random thing called human ability was silly enough.


It is difficult dancing Salsa in bare feet, so I probably wouldn't do that. However, I steel toe caped trainers are a possibility, if and only if the bouncers let me in. So, even if I choose to wear those steel toe shoes, it is not entirely up to me. I have to get the bouncers to agree. Hopefully, they do, because my feet hurt.

We all have to live within the constraints of all that surrounds us.

Rich
0 Replies
 
 

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