My humble opinion on religion

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After 50 odd years of thinking about it and studying it, I have come to the conclusion that religion is not something that is useful or meaningful to me. Put simply- religion is a pointless waste of time and energy.
I base that belief on quite a few observations and assumptions.

First- the development of religion is easy- simply put, religion came about as a mechanism for controlling a group by way of social conditioning, that is- create an 'untouchable' set of rules for how to live. This is a control thing. It greatly aids the 'ruling class' to have a belief system stamped into the minds of the masses. Especially when such system is naturally propagated by families for generations. Not to mention war as a mechanism to spread the 'gospel'.
If you really study the premises of most all religions- the dogmas ALL point at control of thought and action. All the rest is just creative storytelling.

Second- I'll go out on a limb here and say that a large number of so called prophets were most likely mentally ill or fairly stoned on their butt. Is it a coincidence that alcohol was as abused back then as it is today? Hang with some drunks and you'll certainly hear some creative talk about life, etc. As for stoners-- well, hemp was around as well as hallucinogenics, in the form of rye bread mold (lysergic acid precursor, also suspected at the time of the Salem witch trials). Of course some shepherd on acid is going to have grandiose stories to tell. Most of Mohamed's ramblings read pretty stoned to me. As do a lot of stories in the Bible. Miracles my ass, those folks were flying high. Stoned or mentally unstable 'leaders' can be very convincing- read: Jim Jones, L. Ron Hubbard, Charles Manson, etc.

Third- this part is just my personal opinion and always gets me into trouble with folks. Simply stated, all gods are nutso. No one seems to have a god that is sane. The jewish god was a terrible guy. All moody and ready to destroy folks on a whim. Nice ? I don't think so. Now the christian god is a ton nicer, but still pretty odd. Sends his only son to be tortured and die. Wow, thanks, dad. My point here is that fear seems to be a predominant theme with gods. Gets back to the control issues. Another part of this is- where is your god now ? The world is in a serious mess, much worse than a lot of scenarios in the Bible. Why is your god ignoring your prayers for help ?
How can you believe that revelations is true and real ? Reads like an acid trip to me. Way bizarre ****.

Fourth- nearly every war ever fought has a religious undertone if not a straightforward religious element. This is just too cool. Killing in the name of a religious belief ? Convert 'em or kill 'em. Now that's control. Scary stuff. And it still goes on. I find that to be incredible. Oh, and stupid.

I could go on and on, but I think you see my point. Religion just isn't a required element of life anymore. We grew up. We don't need a bunch of dead and invisible 'spirits' to tell us what to do and how to live. We have government for that (LOL). I really don't see any point in propagandizing my children. Let them come to their own conclusions on their own clock. But do teach moral behavior, which can be done with no religious overtones whatsoever.
As for me, personally- I guess atheist comes closest if labeling is required. But I do believe in a life-force that all plants and animals are sharing. I do enjoy Buddhist teaching as the thoughts and idealism's are so 'clean' to me philosophically.
I think the life-force may be somewhere inside of quantum physics.

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@Richard60,

Richard60 wrote:

Fourth- nearly every war ever fought has a religious undertone if not a straightforward religious element. This is just too cool. Killing in the name of a religious belief ? Convert 'em or kill 'em. Now that's control. Scary stuff. And it still goes on. I find that to be incredible. Oh, and stupid.

I admit that this is something that I have never fully understood, either: why would people fight just because they believe in different things?
However, you have to pose the question as to, if 'religion' as we know it was not around, would there be significantly less wars? Or would people fight over other things? It is evident that people have a craving for power and superiority, so maybe religion isn't actually the main cause, but rather some sort of cover-up, or a cloak for the true intentions of the people. As far as I'm concerned, if somebody is truly devoted to their religion, and therefore to the God that they worship, then they shouldn't be part of any violence, let alone war.
I suppose what I'm trying to ask is whether your point is enitrely valid or not. At a quick glance, yes, it does seem that most wars are religion-based, but how deep does the conflict really go? What, these days, can you actually class as a religion? Whatever it is, people obviously need it, as otherwise they would not believe.

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@Richard60,

After I came to my personal conclusion that the ONLY logical thing in this world is that there should be "nothing" instead of "something" and since that is clearly not the case, I have no problems accepting religion (among other things) as a truth. Smile

Much wisdom there me thinks.

Richard60 wrote:

Religion just isn't a required element of life anymore. We grew up. We don't need a bunch of dead and invisible 'spirits' to tell us what to do and how to live. We have government for that (LOL). I really don't see any point in propagandizing my children. Let them come to their own conclusions on their own clock. But do teach moral behavior, which can be done with no religious overtones whatsoever.

The point of religion is that they want to show us that there does exist a true, universal law for all our actions, something like nature laws scientists have discovered. This law is not to be confused with government laws or ethic standards. These are not true laws, they are *agreements*. Agreements change. True laws don't.

Richard60 wrote:

I do enjoy Buddhist teaching as the thoughts and idealism's are so 'clean' to me philosophically.

If you enjoy Buddhist wisdom you would perhaps also enjoy Hinduism. There isn't that much difference I believe. And hinduist concept makes a great conclusion: ALL religions are right, all point somewhere to the true goal and you should take the one you feel comfortable with.

Richard60 wrote:

I think the life-force may be somewhere inside of quantum physics.

I find that funny. I can much easier picture myself that there's a God and he's watching us from a cloud above, than that all our world and life, even our thinking is composed of some miniature hazelnuts (electrons if you wish) which fly around nuts (protons) with some gigantic speed, a speed so high you can't even pinpoint their location. I mean, those scientists who accepted this model of an atom as a scientific truth surely must have been flying high. :sarcastic:

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@Richard60,

I would also say that "religion is not something that is useful or meaningful to me" and "religion is a pointless waste of time and energy." But I wouldn't call that opinion humble. I'm not ashamed to admit that my opinion is downright arrogant. To completely dismiss the wisdom and tradition of all those that came before me who esteemed religion, and call it all useless, meaningless and a waste is anything but humble... in my humble opinion. :whistling:

1 Reply

@Richard60,

Solace-
OK, I can do arrogant. Been a while since I've done much writing and I do have issues with getting thoughts down. They seem to mutate somewhere on the way to my fingers.

I'm not dismissing anyone. I have a lot of respect for those folks who "get it" and understand that it's the "values" of religion that can be good, not the strict word. It's the strict definitions that get folks into trouble, read: shiites vs. sunnis. Need I say more... killing based on interpretation... give me a break.

But I will never put down anyone who gets such lessons as tolerance, love, caring for the downtrodden, yada yada, from their religious beliefs. Those are good things... but you don't have to be a religious person to have those values. You can learn them from your parents with no religious stuff involved.

Maybe "pointless waste of time and energy" seems rather judgemental but I don't mean it that way. I mean it in a sense of not wasting time going through the motions of playing like you are religious just to fit-in or be PC. Kind of leaning towards hypocrites, there, talking the talk but being a jerk anyway.

I am very happy that so many people 'do' get something from their beliefs that is good for them and helps them to be happy. My Mom is very religious yet we never argue. She is right for her. She also agrees that nothing in religion should be taken totally at face value, but for it's essences of truth. It's messages; not messengers.

Anyway, I did preempt that I was talking about what I feel is good for me. Sorry if I implied that I was preaching that my way is better than anyone else's. Not my intent.

proV-
What is true law ?? You lost me there as any law is a human fabrication. Even the laws of physics are but humanities interpretations of reality.
It's already being tossed around in the physics community that many "laws" may be changing when quantum physics are better understood, including Einsteins theories.

It's all a moving target.

But I think I hear where you are going with that- that there are inevitable truths concerning man. Maybe... but study a tribe that is still fairly primitive. They always fabricate a system of control and thought that is 'higher' than they are, that is untouchable except by the 'chosen ones'. Give me a break. It's all well and good if it's what you need, but some of us don't feel we need that. Physics tells me the sun will rise in the east, not some invisible god.

Science quite readily satisfies my needs as far as understanding the world. I fear nothing, in a sense of fearing the traditional unknowns. Perhaps I am naive, who really knows. What I fear is my fellow man, who never ceases to amaze me with ridiculous allegations from their religions. People who fear me and want to kill me because I am a non-believer give me the willies. Even somewhere in John, I think about 12 or so, is the line very close to- "if you don't believe or repent then you are with the antichrist and will be smitten and sent to hell", something along those lines. (I gave away my bible to someone who wanted it). I may have overly stated it, but it's in the area of the bible that implies that everyone who isn't baptized unto Christ is doomed. Wow, internationally, that is a huge pile of folks. I'd love to hear the Dalai Lamas take on that passage.

I debate that there are universal laws that are inevitable. That's rough for me, but I'm open to suggestions.

Hey guys, I'm here to learn not just argue.

Josy-
Perhaps folks would fight anyway, hard to say. Greed and acquisition seem to be human traits that manifest regardless of belief systems.

BUT- how do you raise an army based on your personal greed ? Well, either be a dictator (who will be obeyed) or use religion as a tool to appeal to the masses. "Those guys are thumbing their nose at our god, so let's get them". Works even better than paying the soldiers.

There have been some notable exceptions- Genghis Khan ran rampant and only wanted booty and riches. He appealed to brotherhood and sharing riches to appeal to his tribe of fighters. He was not a religious icon to them nor was he on a religious mission. He was just one greedy dude.

I just think that it's notable that most of what we call war these days is religion based. The days of empire building are gone. The big countries are fairly static now.

It's just back to man hating his fellow man on idealistic grounds. I think that's incredibly dumb.

But that's just me.

1 Reply

@proV,

First off, I wanted to begin by addressing you proV, as you seem to not understand the modus operandi behind quantum mechanics. Quantum physics, in a nutshell (hazelnuts, it seems you prefer) concentrates on the premise that there is a fundamental realm behind the physical realm humans are able to visualize. I want to stress the word "fundamental" as that is what us humans strive for - the underlying "truth" behind substance. Instead of just ignoring a multitude of possibilities, projects like the LHC will allow us to begin contemplating the mechanics of our universe to a finer degree (planck level, etc.), much more precisely (and consequently, it appears, much more randomly). Now, whether you believe this branch of science's credibility is dependent on the practicality of the information as it stands today is your problem, but I really don't feel you should dismiss it completely. As is commonly said, the abstract of today is the practical of tomorrow.

--

Robert, I'm going to almost agree with you entirely. But, I first want to address that we shouldn't place a label on all of religion and then call it a day. This word is much more complex than meets the eye. Hell, there are even scientists of today that consider themselves to be religious. There are also many that aren't zealots or that even practice their faith fervently. Some may even be open-minded, and most actually are from my experience. Let us not categorize another human's intelligence or potential simply because of beliefs he/she may share. With that said, I'm going to define the word "religion" in the context I will be referring, before I proceed, in order to avoid confusion:

A.) Defined belief system twisted together by tenents usually founded on a supernatural being; a lack of critical thought, a figurative cage.

B.) Political and social institution by which order is sought - A segregation of humans vying for a common goal, financial or otherwise, but following control: A tool for power

Religion has been used as a tool for hundreds of years, driving fear into the hearts of those that wish to break from the herd. Religious affiliations pay no taxes, take in billions a year, and still need more more more. It's a scam, it's the greatest money-making scam this earth has ever seen - these cult leaders have people convinced, I mean convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there is an old man up the clouds that watches everything that is done, and judges accordingly. Judges from what you ask? Oh, of course, a book! A book that was created by humans... divine intervention you say? Yeah, the same kind of divine intervention that still asks for your ties every ******* week, right? It's brilliant, really, and as the late Carlin said, "A Businessman can't hold a candle to a Clergyman". Religion is the last excuse from a man that has no argument and wishes to avoid a life of critical thinking. As nameless, another poster on this forum stated, 'Belief' and 'critical thought' are diametrical opposites, the more of one, the less of the other.

If there would be one command I could give to the world, it would be: Contemplate. I'm just appauled how many people do not even wish to come to their own conclusions, conclusions that aren't a culmination of false claims on a bed of blind faith. The short answer is that it's easier not to; never holding fast to a definite belief system, or even reevaluating your belief system at a constant pace, can be tiring psychologically! It's tough, it's filled with anguish, just as all these "philosophers" before us have noted. And, to be honest, this is why I believe this limited way of thinking has been perpetuated to this day. We are in a new age, an age that doesn't *make* us succumb to a certain belief system to avoid death. And there is much progress being made. People, seemingly, are becoming less and less religious daily. Sure, there are still highly-religious groups of humans spread out across the world, but this whole contemplation thing is sure seeming mighty swell to those that don't want to be assraped by the system anymore (or at least realize how they are Smile

)

--

With that out of the way, upon some critical thinking of my own, I came across two similarities that are consistent among a majority of religious "God" concepts. I'd like to share my thoughts on these and hopefully probe some thought by others:

1.) When conceptualizing a "God", personification of humans is applied. This usually comes in the form of a "good" and "evil" spectrum which is tied to what we like to call 'morality'. Now, it makes sense why we would personify an intelligence greater than us, but let us put our hubris aside for a moment and just consider, just consider, that not every fcuking being in this universe is similar to dun dun dun... us *special* humans. Every notion we have about the spectrum of "good" and "evil" should be thrown out the damn window. We must remember that we apply these concepts, and they are nonexistent for those that are not human (so far as we know). Sure, animals have instinct for survival and respond to positive and negative stimuli, but when it comes down to it, they don't judge in the same way humans do. The lion responds to survive, not because it has an illogical deep-seeded discrimination against something. Humans attach profound emotion to everything they attempt to reason with. Yes, this makes us unique, but not necessarily special. The closer we come to realizing the judgment of another being isn't as black and white as the spectrum we've constructed through our inferior emotional stimuli, the closer we will come to our own spirituality.

2.) Time. Haha, time. Oh, people still refuse to consider that time, as we know it, cannot be applied in other parts of the universe. It seems to not cross anyone's mind that we have constructed these units (second, minute, hour) and tailor them according to our liking. Imagine how lost and confused we would be if we were teleported to a random planet and didn't know what "time" it was! Oh, we'd be dazed and confused, wouldn't we? It is understood that we construct time internally and every vision, every sequential image we experience culminates to a reality, our reality. We try to make order of this reality and appear to have reasoning capabilities that other consciousness' do not have. And that's fine, but let's begin to consider a greater being without our same time construct. A greater being without a sequential time construct, such as the lens we see through, would mean the being would not experience. There would be no progression as we see it. The being wouldn't judge on the same level we do, as no collation of events would even occur. Essentially, 'it' would be every time, every place, every thing. I don't think humans have the capacity to even understand what this means, and I know I don't have the capacity to understand what this means, but I'm only sure about the latter.

Oh, and you can continue picking this sh it apart, limb by limb, even further, much finer than my not-so-intelligent mind can even process. The further you wish to delve, the more you wish to consider, the harder it will be to ever have faith in anything again. These religion notions are simply stops in consideration. No more than when we thought an atom was the smallest particle in the universe. They always have been, always will be. It's just your choice in how far you wish to fall down the rabbit hole.

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@Richard60,

Richard60 wrote:

I'm not dismissing anyone. I have a lot of respect for those folks who "get it" and understand that it's the "values" of religion that can be good, not the strict word. It's the strict definitions that get folks into trouble, read: shiites vs. sunnis. Need I say more... killing based on interpretation... give me a break.

I see your point, but I would say that interpretation of religion is not religion itself. Let's say for example, Jesus knew the "ultimate truth". Do you know thru how many mouths and scripts his words went? And people back then weren't as educated as we are today. And even today, we can still easily misinterpret each other. We have invented :sarcastic::whistling::Not-Impressed::surrender: smilies and other helpfull instruments but it's still hard to write our own thoughts. What is "wrong" however, and I think you are completely right with that is how easily religion became perverted and offcourse. If religions are right and there is a God somewhere, world religions should be in the process of uniting. But what we see is the opposite; people are fighting each other because of this small differences between them. Sick. Based on logic they are cutting of their own tree. Unless what they are fighting for isn't really a religion but battle for power, authority and self-centred beliefs.

Richard60 wrote:

But I will never put down anyone who gets such lessons as tolerance, love, caring for the downtrodden, yada yada, from their religious beliefs. Those are good things...

Are they? What makes you say that? Smile

Ethics is just a made up word. If religions are fake and there is no universal law, ethics has no existance IMO. Why on earth would I want to be a "good person"? All I want is to have a good time in this poor 80 years of life that belongs to me. Hard Working? Lol. No time for that! Stealing, killing, taking - much simpler. Especially when majority of sheep-person people around thinks (or blindly believes) otherwise. The law of the braver or stronger, just as in wild life.

Richard60 wrote:

She is right for her. She also agrees that nothing in religion should be taken totally at face value, but for it's essences of truth. It's messages; not messengers.

YEAAAHHHH!!!! Smile

Richard60 wrote:

What is true law ?? You lost me there as any law is a human fabrication. Even the laws of physics are but humanities interpretations of reality.
It's already being tossed around in the physics community that many "laws" may be changing when quantum physics are better understood, including Einsteins theories. It's all a moving target.

I would't agree with you. Newton laws are still holding for majority of our today's living. Sure, perhaps they are approximations or only a part of the whole truth (if it exists), but they are based on something "true". If you don't believe it punch the brick wall near you with your head and report back your "interpretation" if the wall will punch your head back or not. :devilish:

Richard60 wrote:

But I think I hear where you are going with that- that there are inevitable truths concerning man.

Yes, that is exactly what I am trying to say.

Zetherin wrote:

Quantum physics, in a nutshell (hazelnuts, it seems you prefer) concentrates on the premise that there is a fundamental realm behind the physical realm humans are able to visualize. I want to stress the word "fundamental" as that is what us humans strive for - the underlying "truth" behind substance.

Hey, but that is just what religion also speaks of. Just replace your "quantum physics" words with "religion".

Zetherin wrote:

Now, whether you believe this branch of science's credibility is dependent on the practicality of the information as it stands today is your problem, but I really don't feel you should dismiss it completely. As is commonly said, the abstract of today is the practical of tomorrow.

Don't get me wrong; I don't auto dismiss it, but as it's name says it all, it's still only a theory. I am not very familiar with quantum theory though so I speak from a laik's perspective. But even if the theory is spot on, would it really explain everything and disprove religions and God?

Perhaps you would be able to explain a question that arouses me (a bit off topic?). You've mentioned the LHC: Yeah, the LHC is being tested and it should provide us some more knowledge about the subatomic world. But why are the scientists wanting to build their own particle accelerator, when they will never be able to exceed the one nature gave us for free, our universe. The combined energy of particles in LHC of 14x10^12 eV is ridiculously small compared to 3x10^20 eV nature is giving us.

Zetherin wrote:

Religion is the last excuse from a man that has no argument and wishes to avoid a life of critical thinking. As nameless, another poster on this forum stated, 'Belief' and 'critical thought' are diametrical opposites, the more of one, the less of the other.

It's sad really that you are almost right (and herein lies the rabbit) but at least not completely. Swami Vivekananda:

Quote:

What little I know I will tell you. So far as I can reason it out I will do so, but as to what I do not know I will simply tell you what the books say. It is wrong to believe blindly. You must exercise your own reason and judgment; you must practise, and see whether these things happen or not. Just as you would take up any other science, exactly in the same manner you should take up this science (religion) for study.

Religion should have to make progress and become the ultimate science not some empty faith you blindly stick to. People are "thinking" beings. Of course there should be some belief present, because as teachings say, religion can not be shown or proven in current scientific methods, it can only be known. But, to be fair, there is belief also in science. LHC was build because scientists BELIEVE they will make progress with it. Wikipedia:

Quote:

More generally, physicists hope that the LHC will enhance their ability to answer the following questions:Is the Higgs mechanism for generating elementary particle masses in the Standard Model indeed realised in nature? If so, how many Higgs bosons are there, and what are their masses?
Are electromagnetism, the strong nuclear force and the weak nuclear force just different manifestations of a single unified force, as predicted by various Grand Unification Theories?
Why is gravity so many orders of magnitude weaker than the other three fundamental forces? See also Hierarchy problem.
Is Supersymmetry realised in nature, implying that the known Standard Model particles have supersymmetric partners?
Will the more precise measurements of the masses and decays of the quarks continue to be mutually consistent within the Standard Model?
Why are there apparent violations of the symmetry between matter and anti
matter? See also CP-violation.
What is the nature of dark matter and dark energy?
Are there extra dimensions, as predicted by various models inspired by string theory, and can we detect them?

They don't know. If they knew then there would be no need to build the LHC in the first place.

1 Reply

@proV,

proV wrote:

Hey, but that is just what religion also speaks of. Just replace your "quantum physics" words with "religion".

I want to first clarify with you that when I spoke of my religion in my text, I included the definition to which I was referring. With that said, religion is NOT a progressive tactic towards finding the fundamentals of the universe. Even if quantum theory is just theory, it is theory paved way by thinkers that acknowledge the world around us may not be as simple as we had once understood. People that wish to acquire more knowledge, learn, contemplate, discover. In religion, you are told what to believe, there is no advancement in thought - nothing is ever realized besides what the doctrines command you to realize. This is child stuff, it's immature, it requires no further thinking whatsoever. And to imagine, a group of bishops hundreds of years ago wrote this s hit to keep people in line, and people are still following it today. Oh, I'm sure if they can laugh in the afterlife (whatever that may be!) they sure are!

proV wrote:

Don't get me wrong; I don't auto dismiss it, but as it's name says it all, it's still only a theory. I am not very familiar with quantum theory though so I speak from a laik's perspective. But even if the theory is spot on, would it really explain everything and disprove religions and God?

It's not about the theory being spot on. This is just one facet of critical thinking (this time on a subatomic level) that will advance us as a species. If we prove, through scientific fact, that much of this information is credible, it will be a stepping stone towards the understanding of the universe. From the breakdown of atoms, to the revolution of the earth, to the understanding of wave function, it's all the same, another stepping stone. We can never disprove a God, just as we cannot prove a God -That's the beauty of the argument these people have perpetuated for centuries. But, again, let me clarify the definition of religion that I provided is what I have a problem with, not the premise of "God"! The institutions that impregnate the minds of so many, take from them all they can, and then dispose of them in order to continue the tyranny through holy wars. This is the problem we face. Don't get me wrong, this doesn't stop at religion either, here's another form: Patriotism.

proV wrote:

Perhaps you would be able to explain a question that arouses me (a bit off topic?). You've mentioned the LHC: Yeah, the LHC is being tested and it should provide us some more knowledge about the subatomic world. But why are the scientists wanting to build their own particle accelerator, when they will never be able to exceed the one nature gave us for free, our universe. The combined energy of particles in LHC of 14x10^12 eV is ridiculously small compared to 3x10^20 eV nature is giving us.

Sorry, I don't really have a grasp with the information you are speaking.

1 Reply

@Zetherin,

Quote:

Don't get me wrong, this doesn't stop at religion either, here's another form: Patriotism.

From the Tao Te Ching, "When the country falls into chaos, patriotism is born."

Indeed, patriotism is another form of control.

1 Reply

@Solace,

But not all religion is a form of control.

It's been said before, in one way or another, that generalizations regarding religion at large are extremely difficult if not impossible. Religion isn't a form of control, some (yeah, probably the vast majority) religious institutions are a form of control.

2 Replies

@Didymos Thomas,

Is a form of control a bad thing though? Look at where it has led us. For example a christian follows the ten commandments. Thats a good thing. The only sad thing about all of this is that the only reason why we follow the ten commandments is that if we don't we have this idea that we will go to hell. I do also believe that religion is a waste of time.Yah there is definitely a god watching our every move.( sarc.) Why would god send us to hell anyways, after all he loves us doesn't he. In my opinion the people who made the bible were either delusional/psychotic or they overdosed on alcohol.

2 Replies

@Zetherin,

Ups, sorry, I overlooked your definitions:

Zetherin wrote:

...I'm going to define the word "religion" in the context I will be referring, before I proceed, in order to avoid confusion:

A.) Defined belief system twisted together by tenents usually founded on a supernatural being; a lack of critical thought, a figurative cage.

B.) Political and social institution by which order is sought - A segregation of humans vying for a common goal, financial or otherwise, but following control: A tool for power.

I'm sorry but I can in no way identify with your definition of religion. I will try to clarify but since we are on entirely different hills I don't think I can contribute anything progressive anymore.:surrender:

"A lack of critical thought?" There are MANY critical thoughts written in favour of religion. The eastern religions have their own psychology science that is probably 10 times more "advanced" and extensive that the one that is known under today's science.

"A figurative cage"? I don't know why this reminds me of "models" of atoms we were thought in primary school. It's common everywhere.

"B.)" passage...I can only connect this with inductive reasoning which doesn't prove anything IMO. You may be right but not assuredly. And even if you would be right that would still only prove that the method is wrong and not the message or idea.
As English is not my primary language I might have problems with terminology but isn't that what you are describing under "B" more of "religious institutionalism" than "religion"? I wouldn't connect this two terms.

Zetherin wrote:

I want to first clarify with you that when I spoke of my religion in my text, I included the definition to which I was referring. With that said, religion is NOT a progressive tactic towards finding the fundamentals of the universe.

Yes, religion is NOT a progressive tactic towards finding the fundamentals of the universe. In religion, the fundamentals of the universe are known. But since we humans are obviously advancing our way from the opposite point, let's call it from the beggining, it's so hard for us to understand it, because the path between isn't known.

1 Reply

@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

But not all religion is a form of control.

It's been said before, in one way or another, that generalizations regarding religion at large are extremely difficult if not impossible. Religion isn't a form of control, some (yeah, probably the vast majority) religious institutions are a form of control.

Didy, we have spoken about this before, and that is exactly why I wanted to clarify the facet of religion to which I was referring. The word is too liberally used, as you know, and you're right it isn't always a form of control - it's only as controlling and mind-numbing as one allows... just as any form of blind-faith can be. Again, the problem lies in the zealots, those that seek power, and think not twice about taking another's life in the name of whoever/whatever they idolize.

2 Replies

@proV,

proV wrote:

I'm sorry but I can in no way identify with your definition of religion. I will try to clarify but since we are on entirely different hills I don't think I can contribute anything progressive anymore.:surrender:

That's fair enough, but very surprising you cannot identify in some way. People kill in the name of religion all of the world - A friend of mine from Serbia had to leave his country because of the immense amount of bloodshed in the name of religious and political beliefs. This has been happening all over the world, and the control I speak of has been commonly seen for centuries and is still happening to this day. This is why I find it surprising you've never come across, either directly or indirectly, a form of this fanaticism.

proV wrote:

"A lack of critical thought?" There are MANY critical thoughts written in favour of religion. The eastern religions have their own psychology science that is probably 10 times more "advanced" and extensive that the one that is known under today's science.

A critical thought does not imply a consistent process of critical thinking. If I am to stop at a critical thought, dedicate my life to it, and then kill in the name of it, I would call myself a fool. Especially if it is not even a conclusion I've come to on my own! Choose your superstition, wish away, but don't then come to me with a rifle when I don't agree with yours. This is how many forms of this control work, and again, no it doesn't just stop at these religious institutions.

proV wrote:

"A figurative cage"? I don't know why this reminds me of "models" of atoms we were thought in primary school. It's common everywhere.

It reminds me of that, too, which is my point. A stop in consideration is essentially a figurative cage. Whether one is comfortable enough in their belief to keep on living is the evaluation one has to make. I, personally, must go further, as far as I can delve, in order to feel fulfilled. Others, I understand, may not feel this way. Again, I do not hold these people in contempt, I just merely wish that those overly-fervent do not interfere with others contemplations. Let each choose his path.

proV wrote:

And even if you would be right that would still only prove that the method is wrong and not the message or idea.

I'm not saying the innate message or idea is wrong at all.

proV wrote:

Yes, religion is NOT a progressive tactic towards finding the fundamentals of the universe. In religion, the fundamentals of the universe are known. But since we humans are obviously advancing our way from the opposite point, let's call it from the beggining, it's so hard for us to understand it, because the path between isn't known.

Well, here's the logic as I see it: In the beginning, we had a "God" for almost everything, from the agriculture, to war, to love, to mercy, to the sun. The more knowledge we have acquired over the centuries, the less we have left up to God. Centuries before, we would think the Sun God was providing us heat, and now we've learned of thermodynamics. Centuries before, we left it up to the agriculture God to give us a good yield, and now we've advanced in vegetative genetic manipulation. It goes on an on, the more we learn logically about the world around us, the less we've been leaving up to "God" and ultimately the more elusive he is becoming. Before we could see "God" in the clouds, and now we know of the stratosphere. This doesn't mean that "God" doesn't exist but as is commonly said, perhaps we shouldn't mistake the finger pointing as the thing being pointed at. We don't have the answers, no we don't, but I don't think we will ever learn them without contemplation and further critical thought. As far as I see it, being under command of 10 laws, in a world this complex, doesn't make sense at all. These defined lines, the spectrum of "good" and "evil", the persistent comradery, must be reevaluated if we are to advance. The method we have attempted to deploy over the centuries is obviously not working, and the unification of humanity will not be achieved by the current belief systems. We must not settle, we must love and consider. Otherwise, otherwise, this madness will never stop.

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@Solace,

Solace wrote:

I would also say that "religion is not something that is useful or meaningful to me" and "religion is a pointless waste of time and energy." But I wouldn't call that opinion humble. I'm not ashamed to admit that my opinion is downright arrogant. To completely dismiss the wisdom and tradition of all those that came before me who esteemed religion, and call it all useless, meaningless and a waste is anything but humble... in my humble opinion. :whistling:

That's a good point. It seems to me that people's religious beliefs are rarely based on reason, let alone sound reasoning, and opposing beliefs cannot be dismissed on any other basis except arrogance.

But I'm sure your opinion cannot really be arrogant if you think it's an opinion. It's only when an opinion starts ossifying into a fact that arrogance becomes a danger.

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@MITech,

MITech wrote:

Is a form of control a bad thing though? Look at where it has led us. For example a christian follows the ten commandments. Thats a good thing. The only sad thing about all of this is that the only reason why we follow the ten commandments is that if we don't we have this idea that we will go to hell. I do also believe that religion is a waste of time.Yah there is definitely a god watching our every move.( sarc.) Why would god send us to hell anyways, after all he loves us doesn't he. In my opinion the people who made the bible were either delusional/psychotic or they overdosed on alcohol.

Thank you for the first sentance.

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

Didy, we have spoken about this before, and that is exactly why I wanted to clarify the facet of religion to which I was referring. The word is too liberally used, as you know, and you're right it isn't always a form of control - it's only as controlling and mind-numbing as one allows... just as any form of blind-faith can be. Again, the problem lies in the zealots, those that seek power, and think not twice about taking another's life in the name of whoever/whatever they idolize.

Sorry to cut in, but I just wanted to point out that religion is not a form of blind faith unless that is what we turn it into.

1 Reply

@Whoever,

Whoever wrote:

Sorry to cut in, but I just wanted to point out that religion is not a form of blind faith unless that is what we turn it into.

"only as mind-numbing as one allows..."

And never be sorry to cut in, sometimes I need to be cut.

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

That's fair enough, but very surprising you cannot identify in some way. People kill in the name of religion all of the world - A friend of mine from Serbia had to leave his country because of the immense amount of bloodshed in the name of religious and political beliefs. This has been happening all over the world, and the control I speak of has been commonly seen for centuries and is still happening to this day. This is why I find it surprising you've never come across, either directly or indirectly, a form of this fanaticism.

I know the wars that Serbia was in quite well. They have fought against our country 17 years ago when we were fighting for our independance. Do you know what is the "official" nickname for that place (Serbia and nearby countries)? "A barrel of gunpowder". It's called so because that place has been a juncture of many religions, cultural and ethnical differences for centuries.

Zetherin wrote:

Again, the problem lies in the zealots, those that seek power, and think not twice about taking another's life in the name of whoever/whatever they idolize.

I will tell you about the largest "zealot" I have ever seen. It was one "western army" soldier talking in a documentary about weapons on Discovery channel (a TV channel). He was talking about modern arms (intelligent weapons, apaches etc.) and how effective they were in a war he also particepated. He was sooooo enthusiastic and excited! Like he was talking about some videogames. It made me sick I had to turn off the channel!

Guess who is the world's largest arms exporter?

Guess which country was in all of these wars counted from WW1 (info from Wiki):
WW1, WW2, Cold War, Korean war, Lebanon crisis, Bay of pigs invasion, Dominican intervention, Vietnam war, Tehran hostage rescue, Grenada, Beirut, Panama, Gulf War, Somalia, Yugoslavia, Afghanistan, Philippines, Liberia, Iraq.

The USA. World's most developed country. 78.5% of people have declared themselves christians (2007 - by CIA factbook). Freedom of speech, freedom to think, freedom of religious belief, free will (by God, right?), 15 years of education average. Democracy.

And if we could extract the holy religion wisdom of these 78.5% people, these few sentences would suffice:

Quote:

Matthew 22.38:
Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind. This is the first and most important commandment. The second most important commandment is like this one. And it is, "Love others as much as you love yourself." All the Law of Moses and the Books of the Prophets are based on these two commandments.

I don't know what people are hearing in a churches there and what are being preached but I can speak for my country. My country is also mostly christian (catholic), I visit local church and listen to sermon. All nice words, I will say. I hear the info from the Pope twice a year. At the time of Chrismas and at the time of Easter. Again all nice words like "walk the path Jesus did", "be good", "pray" etc. That's it.

I will conlude with these. It is not the fault of religion or religious institutions, that the world is fighting because of religion differences. The fault is all in the people. People have a choice. And they choosed.

Quote:

Matthew 6.24:
You cannot be the slave of two masters! You will like one more than the other or be more loyal to one than the other. You cannot serve both God and money.

Majority obviously choosed "money". We can't blame religion and if we could blame religious leaders of anything, that would be inactivity and retaining the Status-Quo. I don't believe they are really pressuring people. Well, I hope I am wrong.

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@Richard60,

I agree that we need a belief system that is scientific. But if you mean what currently passes for a 'scientific' belief system then I couldn't agree less.

2 Replies

My humble opinion on religion

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