teacup
 
Reply Sun 7 Dec, 2008 12:50 pm
As far as I know, dark matter is unobservable. It is indirectly detected by its gravitational force on detectable matter (like galaxies). It was labeled as such bc scientists has an idea of how gravity worked, but then that theory didn't hold up in the universe, so they figured there must be some other type of matter out there.

First of all, how is this unobservable matter more valid than an unobservable god?
Because of indirect empirical observations?

Second, does the fact that dark matter has been produced as a way for scientists to maintain their core beliefs (how gravity works) a sign that they are somewhat fundamental about their beliefs? Ruse in "Creation science is not a science" says scientists are not fundamental about their beliefs. (And creation scientists are fundamental).

Also, could this situation be like the outdated phlogiston theory? Scientists had an idea of how things burned, their tests didn't quite match up, so they adjusted their theory. Kuhn shows us how this is an example of a paradigm shift. Once we figured something else out (how oxygen works) we were able to shift paradigms. Could scientists be stuck in a paradigm about gravity and forces in outer space that will eventually shift (once we have a new/better theory)? Could dark matter just be buying us time, a way to make sense of things that we can't quite understand just yet?
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Theaetetus
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Dec, 2008 01:03 pm
@teacup,
teacup wrote:
As far as I know, dark matter is unobservable. It is indirectly detected by its gravitational force on detectable matter (like galaxies). It was labeled as such bc scientists has an idea of how gravity worked, but then that theory didn't hold up in the universe, so they figured there must be some other type of matter out there.

First of all, how is this unobservable matter more valid than an unobservable god?
Because of indirect empirical observations?

Second, does the fact that dark matter has been produced as a way for scientists to maintain their core beliefs (how gravity works) a sign that they are somewhat fundamental about their beliefs? Ruse in "Creation science is not a science" says scientists are not fundamental about their beliefs. (And creation scientists are fundamental).

Also, could this situation be like the outdated phlogiston theory? Scientists had an idea of how things burned, their tests didn't quite match up, so they adjusted their theory. Kuhn shows us how this is an example of a paradigm shift. Once we figured something else out (how oxygen works) we were able to shift paradigms. Could scientists be stuck in a paradigm about gravity and forces in outer space that will eventually shift (once we have a new/better theory)? Could dark matter just be buying us time, a way to make sense of things that we can't quite understand just yet?


Dark matter is kind of an interesting subject for the reasons you have hit on. First off, dark matter may be directly observable, but not to humans at the present moment in time. Things that are not directly observable to humans at certain moments probably led to God and other such concepts to explain the unknown.

The second line of reasoning is the much more interesting aspect of the subject. Having tortured myself with Kuhn's book, The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, I would have to say that all scientific concepts that we hold are subject to change as our observational abilities improve. Eventually our limited concepts can no longer explain what we observe so with time humanity is forced to change their concepts. Thus, as new members enter fields the fields go through paradigm shifts. This line of reasoning also suggests that scientific knowledge is relative to perspective and is only justified insofar as a society believes it based on their observation and concepts.
Joe
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Dec, 2008 02:03 pm
@Theaetetus,
Is Einstein the Last Great Genius? - Yahoo! News

This is something to be remembered, when diving into science that could define you and everything around you.
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validity
 
  1  
Reply Mon 8 Dec, 2008 12:11 am
@teacup,
teacup wrote:
First of all, how is this unobservable matter more valid than an unobservable god?
Because of indirect empirical observations?


To decide which is more valid we would need to set out the grounding of each claim. I have never heard of a theist saying "the god I believe in is hypothetical". Scientists stamp dark matter as being hypothetical, they do not insist it is true, just a plausible explination worthy of further research.

teacup wrote:
Second, does the fact that dark matter has been produced as a way for scientists to maintain their core beliefs (how gravity works) a sign that they are somewhat fundamental about their beliefs? Ruse in "Creation science is not a science" says scientists are not fundamental about their beliefs. (And creation scientists are fundamental)


I think (good) scientists are well adapted to abandoning beliefs when faced with evidence to the contrary. Its the nature of science to improve on what is known.

teacup wrote:
Also, could this situation be like the outdated phlogiston theory? Scientists had an idea of how things burned, their tests didn't quite match up, so they adjusted their theory. Kuhn shows us how this is an example of a paradigm shift. Once we figured something else out (how oxygen works) we were able to shift paradigms. Could scientists be stuck in a paradigm about gravity and forces in outer space that will eventually shift (once we have a new/better theory)? Could dark matter just be buying us time, a way to make sense of things that we can't quite understand just yet?


It could very well be. Science is at a loss when it comes to trying to reconcile the behaviour of the very small with the behaviour of the very large.

General relativity has passed many experimental tests Tests of general relativity - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and even if GR fails precision testing at the scale of galaxies (see link), it still works fine in its limited domain. Just as Newtons ideas of gravity works fine in its domain and was not abandoned when GR came along, GR wont be discarded either.

May I ask, why do you think people have yet to abandon certain ideas? For example why do people abandon phlogiston theory yet cling to the idea of god?
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