Emergence proves determinism

So then do you agree with my 2nd thought in my OP? That even though cause it unknown one can only expect for emergence to be deterministic? If so then the atheist can not pull away from a deterministic universe and still must expect to realize that free will is still non existent?

If I had to put all my chips on one colour, yes, I'd wager that, for instance, consciousness was a deterministically (but not necessarily predictably) emerging process. By free will, do you mean libertarian free will? I think libertarian free will is fairly absurd anyway - the notion of being able to 'do otherwise' ignores the linearity of time, that we only get one shot so we can never do otherwise. You don't need to look to determinism to see its flaws, but, yes, it was defined to be incompatible with determinism.

Compatibilist free will is much more sensible, stating that a person could do otherwise if (s)he had chosen to. This is really no different to saying "the ball could have landed further away if I'd thrown it further" - it's practically a truism. The contingency on choice allows for a determinist choosing process. This is how I understand free will, as essentially having the ability to do any of the choices considered but the necessity to do only one.

What do you mean by 'ability to do any of the choices'.

I enquired on another thread ,do you believe in a soul?

Free will – is our understanding wrong? - life - 01 August 2007 - New Scientist Excuse me but is it certain? Suarez does not appear to agree in this article.

Well it depends on how you define 'soul'. I surely do not have a concrete stance on the whole topic. But I do believe there is an immaterial essence in every person. I don't know if it is there at conception or there during later stages in a babies life. Though I do believe that God places it there in every human being.

So my opinions lie 'possibly' with option two in my OP. Emergence could very well be deterministic, so in that case option two would remain a plausible choice.

I hold that all atheists are bound to accept a deterministic view point. In doing so 'free will' and 'consciousness' as defined in their general sense are illusions.

You continually confuse me,as believer in god could you confirm your views on free will and its relationship to the soul.I'm an atheist,agnostic, and free will is a certainty.Determining events by previous events is not a conclusion i ever came to.

You mean explain how it works? Free will in relation to a soul and God? I don't know the answer to that, nor does the Bible teach much on that, but there are theories.

You confuse me very much as well. You are an atheist whom believes in free will as a fact of life with no room for question. That takes more faith then for me to believe in God. You have your cake of science yet your eating away with it with your belief in a free will. Soon you will have to reject science or reject free will. You can't have both. I don't care what experience tells you. It's like believing in unicorns yet being a member of an organization whom professes disbelief in mythical creatures. It is as if you say you swear you've seen a unicorn before yet you have no issue being a part of an organization whom denies belief in mythical creatures...

Do you see how absurd that sounds? That is what you are doing.

Let me give you another example. It would be if I were to accept evolution and that man is a descendant of Apes YET I believe God made Adam and Eve as the first humans as depicted in Genesis....

Sounds ridiculous right? Well that is what you are doing.

i believe that everything is determined to the point that if i sow a radish with luck a radish will grow.The free will we have been given will be the fate that is decided by us.I dont believe in a conceived god as im not privy to that knowledge but i do believe in a soul..and i am an atheist.Everything is written but it is by us.Everything is determined but it is by our free will that it is determined.When the BB emerged, your emergence, everything was possible by design, but i am an atheist.

What do you mean by 'ability to do any of the choices'.

I'm struggling with my thoughts on this subject (Free will/Determinism) so please bare with me.

If we live in a Determinist's Universe, Then it would apply to all objects and not exclude certain things that would sit outside of Determinism This is my (Very) basic understanding.

So with this understanding, Free will is an Illusion based on Human Complexities of the mind. But in a Deterministic Universe, the complexity doesn't change or exclude The Human perception and consciousness from causality. Logically speaking. Is this Right?

Thanks

I think so..but the argument on a scientific deterministic idea means that the BB was directly responsible for you writing this post.I see it as one of those silly inane ways of reasoning.There are so many imponderables, so many insignificant events ,to even consider it is madness.Even now it might be that QM has decided certain events can occur without a cause, so it is all academic nonsense..in my opinion..We may be product of our genes or nurture but we can still control our destiny by our choices, however much we have been influenced.

I think that Im leaning away from the Deterministic theory. Ive only been picking at it for a couple hours, but There are people who have brought up some logical problems that I cant get past or answer.

Philosophy wise, Determinism doesnt seem to support any type of choice when it comes to Virtue or moral compass. If we are all rocks bouncing down a hill then whats the purpose of condeming someone for murder if they are but a result of causality and have no choice in the matter.

I'll keep at it for little, but its a pretty fundamental flaw to ignore, philosophically.

I think to a certain degree there is some justification in this view but not to the extremes it has been commended.Will an uneducated child always create an ignorant adult?i don't think so.A christian child a priest make more likely than a muslim child, i would think so.I think everything is written but we write it.

If there is no choice or 2nd option in a deterministic Universe then what you "Think" is Right or Wrong does not exist. There is only one path to take for everything and everyone. Therefore, no one can be judged or critized for there actions. Ive yet to find something that shows purpose and reason for human ethics and morals in determinism.

Because if determinism is true, then there's less randomness. There's less unpredictability. To have freedom, you need the capacity to make reliable judgments about what's going to happen next, so you can base your action on it.
Imagine that you've got to cross a field and there's lightning about. If it's deterministic, then there's some hope of knowing when the lightning's going to strike. You can get information in advance, and then you can time your run. That's much better than having to rely on a completely random process. If it's random, you're at the mercy of it.
A more telling example is when people worry about genetic determinism, which they completely don't understand. If the effect of our genes on our likely history of disease were chaotic, let alone random, that would mean that there'd be nothing we could do about it. Nothing. It would be like Russian roulette. You would just sit and wait.
But if there are reliable patterns -- if there's a degree of determinism -- then we can take steps to protect ourselves.

There is only one path to take for everything and everyone. Therefore, no one can be judged or critized for there actions.

Ive yet to find something that shows purpose and reason for human ethics and morals in determinism.

Judgments can be determined.



In (absolute) determinism human ethics and morals and reasons for them can be determined. There is a 'reason' for thinking and believing X is good or bad, and that reason is determined, including the rational behind it.

But determinism is a strange thing, and it is difficult to articulate this strangeness. If (absolute) determinism is the case then all thoughts and beliefs about determinism being true or false and the positions taken, are determined. There is zero free will, yet the ideas and feelings can deterministically arise that there is free will.


Determinism, if true, cannot be known to be true (or false). For that one would have to exit the determined world and cease to be its product where that which appears to be known and not known, and believed and not believed etc. is force fed. The problem with that is, the big, big problem is that the 'You' in a deterministic world is determined. For this You there can be no exit, for to exit is to cease to be.