Does consciousness arise out of having a language?

@jknilinux,

Even a plant like a tree suggests that they have some sort of a primitive consciousness.

A bug attack on a tree remote from other trees by a few miles is somehow conveyed and the trees repond to what is only a threat be hugely increasing tannin which the bugs hate

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

Even a plant like a tree suggests that they have some sort of a primitive consciousness.

A bug attack on a tree remote from other trees by a few miles is somehow conveyed and the trees repond to what is only a threat be hugely increasing tannin which the bugs hate

Tress and plants do not have consciousness. Only animals have consciousness, and not all animals at that (jellyfish, sponges, etc.). Plants are a form of life, and so they have biological reactions that help them survive, but they don't have awareness of self or environment.

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@jknilinux,

hue-man

Quote:

Tress and plants do not have consciousness. Only animals have consciousness, and not all animals at that (jellyfish, sponges, etc.). Plants are a form of life, and so they have biological reactions that help them survive, but they don't have awareness of self or environment.

How can you make this as a statement of fact?

You could only know this if you were a plant

Many biologist think that plants have a means of communication between them I look up the article

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@jknilinux,

Human language is possibly the greatest tool mankind has ever created. It is the framework of society. It is the framework of culture. It is the framework of law, of literature, of (normal non-artistic) self-expression...heck, it may even be the framework of higher sentience itself. But does it lead to consciousness? No. Cats, dogs, chimpanzees, and many others, are all conscious of who they are, but we could hardly say they possess language.

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@hue-man,

Consciousness has nothing to do with brain activity.

Consciousness is an awareness of self, and the existence the self resides in. Brain function is no different than heart, liver,lung or any other organ function.

The difference between conscious and conscience is exactly the difference between what the brain functions tell us and what our inner self tells us. There is an awareness there that goes far beyond the function of the brain organ.

Sincerely,
Pathfinder

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

Consciousness has nothing to do with brain activity.

Consciousness is an awareness of self, and the existence the self resides in. Brain function is no different than heart, liver,lung or any other organ function.

The difference between conscious and conscience is exactly the difference between what the brain functions tell us and what our inner self tells us. There is an awareness there that goes far beyond the function of the brain organ.

Sincerely,
Pathfinder

No, this is not necessarily true. There are theories that suggest our consciousness is dependent on our brain - just a firing of neurons. Our perception is a result of our brain. What awareness goes far beyond our thoughts and perception, both instances of our brain? And, what other type of creatures have this transcended awareness? Do share.

As for a tree being conscious, this I have not come to grips with yet. A tree could be no different than a computer program with commands elicited. In fact, many computer programs of this day can 'respond' in much the same way a tree can. Is a computer program conscious?

Can we really say our body is conscious? Biologically, it is no different than the tree, except it is receiving signals from the brain; each cell making up our arms, legs, abdominals, intestines, can 'respond' in much the same way biologically. And when I say "we" I'm even questioning what that means: Are we just a socially constructed identity? Are we our bodies? Are we just the organized activity of brain cells? Bodies can still live without consciousness. Consciousness, in this respect, could just be the result of brain activity.

But again, please specifically tell me where "Self" resides.

Thanks.

1 Reply

@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

hue-man

How can you make this as a statement of fact?

You could only know this if you were a plant

Many biologist think that plants have a means of communication between them I look up the article

They probably do have a means of communication.

So do computer programs. Would you call the computer program conscious? How can you make the statement that computer programs aren't conscious? Surely we must give the same consideration, right?

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@Zetherin,

for one to be considered conscious by your definitions, one would have to be in an awakened state and aware of their surroundings relying on brain function and interaction with what the brains bond with the senses tells it is going on in its environment.

What about when a person is asleep? the person is not aware of their surropundings, the brain is not able to program through vision or smell or touch, all the brain is able to interact with is the sleeping thoughts/dreams of the person.

Thye person is quite unconscious by your definition of brain perception and yet they are still alive and well. And still feeling emotions while they are asleep and unconscious. the bgrain is not able to tell them anything, program anything with reagrd to ther senses interacting with the outside world they sleep within, the brain function is mpowerless except for the fact that it is still a functioning organ whule the person dreams.

The brain is not programming what the person is seeing in their dreams because the images are not being seen by the closed eyes.

Where then is the awareness of the person in this state? How can they be feeling amotions and seeing things in their mind that have no tie whatsoever to the function of the brain?

It is in this mysterious place that you find where the self resides, and in this place there is no functioning of the brain. Only emotion and thought processes relayed to the mind through thought alone.

It is no different than when you close your eyes and envision yourself in a oasis. Your brain could not provide any data aabout what you are experiencing, but you could feel and see all of the emotion and beauty of your mental world as though you were actually there. How is that possible if the brain is functioning and yet not part of the action at that moment?

Consciousness has nothing to do with brain function. Brain function can be rendereed useless as soon as you close your eyes and dream. And yet you would still be very conscious.

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

What about when a person is asleep? the person is not aware of their surropundings, the brain is not able to program through vision or smell or touch, all the brain is able to interact with is the sleeping thoughts/dreams of the person.

Really? Do this experiment for me: Go to sleep and then have someone tickle your nose with a feather. Let me know if you react in any way. If you do, you're wrong.

Pathfinder wrote:

The brain is not programming what the person is seeing in their dreams because the images are not being seen by the closed eyes.

Where then is the awareness of the person in this state? How can they be feeling amotions and seeing things in their mind that have no tie whatsoever to the function of the brain?

It is in this mysterious place that you find where the self resides, and in this place there is no functioning of the brain. Only emotion and thought processes relayed to the mind through thought alone.

Absolutely the brain is processing what is being seen in dreams, or even the images that are being 'seen' via thought. Do you have even the slightest inkling about how our brain works? Specifically, it's hypothesized that a hallucinogen called DMT is released while dreaming - when dreaming, you are, in fact, in a psychedelic state. You are never seeing mental images without the function of your brain. According to what you say, if I were to sever your brain stem right now, you'd still be conscious on some level, your "self" would persist? That's fine if you believe that (as that would be a spiritual belief of yours, no different than a belief in an afterlife), but I'm saying that medically, as far as we know, this is not so.

Pathfinder wrote:

It is no different than when you close your eyes and envision yourself in a oasis. Your brain could not provide any data aabout what you are experiencing, but you could feel and see all of the emotion and beauty of your mental world as though you were actually there. How is that possible if the brain is functioning and yet not part of the action at that moment?

The frontal lobe allows us to simulate experience. You're aware of this, aren't you? You can envision yourself in an oasis because your brain is providing data regarding the oasis. My brain could not provide any data about what I'm experiencing? Then how exactly am I simulating the experience? Magically? I almost laughed out loud at your question, "How is that possible if the brain is functioning and yet not part of the action at that moment?" No offense, buddy, but I really would have thought by now you would have figured this one out: think about anything your body has never taken part in!

Pathfinder wrote:

Consciousness has nothing to do with brain function. Brain function can be rendereed useless as soon as you close your eyes and dream. And yet you would still be very conscious.

Brain function is not rendered useless when you close your eyes and dream. In fact, most of our memory processing is done whilst sleeping! I suggest you read up on: Dream - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Sleep - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Possibly, even go through some more credible, medical sources concerning the subject. And when I mean subject, I don't just mean dreams and sleep. Start with basic brain function.

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@jknilinux,

There is a difference between the sort of brain stimulation that you talking about when you are tickled with a feather and the thought processes that are taking place in the dream state. So that is not a valid experiment.

The brain is not able to see someone sneak into the room. The brain would not be able to smell the roses that they were carrying when they snuck into the room. WHY? the brain is still functioning is it not?

You are comparing apples and oranges here.

What the brain experiences in sleep state is not the same as the experiences it can interact with by making use of the sense organs when a person is awake.

And I would argue your suggestion that the brain is creating the images in the mind when a person dreams. The science that you are using as support is a theoretical science with no proven claims and many experimental thesis still taking place. Do not use them as though they are confirmed scientific findings. Scientists have been studying the dream state for years and it is till a great mystery to them.

What the mind is experiencing ina dream state is not images provided by the brain. The brain can only transmit what it receives through the optic nerves.

1 Reply

@Pathfinder,

Pathfinder wrote:

What the brain experiences in sleep state is not the same as the experiences it can interact with by making use of the sense organs when a person is awake.

I never said they were. I happen to believe both are involving a cognitive process on some level, however.

Quote:

And I would argue your suggestion that the brain is creating the images in the mind when a person dreams. The science that you are using as support is a theoretical science with no proven claims and many experimental thesis still taking place. Do not use them as though they are confirmed scientific findings. Scientists have been studying the dream state for years and it is till a great mystery to them.

Fair enough, but I could say the same about you contesting me, could I not? There is much science that is theoretical - theory does not equal just a random educated guess. It's not just an opinion, there is supporting evidence. You're aware that even Gravity is still considered a theory, right? If you choose not to believe it, that's fine, I don't really care. This is what I choose to believe, as I don't believe in any kind of mysterious/mystical realm (that I've constructed the notions of thus far)

All I was asking is: Tell me where the "Self" you believe in is located, and give me some example. If you say dreams do not come from the brain, you are implying there is a "higher realm", to which the images are relaying to a "Self", correct? Elaborate on this claim.

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@Aedes,

Hi All!!

Consciousness is not limited to the mind, the whole body as a multicelluar organism is conscious, anything that is alive is conscious, true there are degrees of consciousness but, life is consciousness. "We are cousins to the trees, made of the same stuff, arranged in differing orders." Carl Sagan

:)PS: It has been said that the subconscious is the consciousness of the body, and as such would constitute the self, consciousness as it is normally considered is but the tip of an iceberg. The body has built a brain the brain did not build the body.

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Hi All!!

Consciousness is not limited to the mind, the whole body as a multicelluar organism is conscious, anything that is alive is conscious, true there are degrees of consciousness but, life is consciousness. "We are cousins to the trees, made of the same stuff, arranged in differing orders." Carl Sagan

Are computer programs conscious then? If not, why?

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin wrote:

Are computer programs conscious then? If not, why?

Hi Zetherin!! Smile

I think the missing element in the computer is need, in the sense of needing an object, the physical world, thus desire is the defining principle of human consciousness and this desire is conditioned by both pain and pleasure. If the computer could simulate these things, I think it would be conscious or something very much like consciousness.

1 Reply

@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Hi Zetherin!!

I think the missing element in the computer is need, in the sense of needing an object, the physical world, thus desire is the defining principle of human consciousness and this desire is conditioned by both pain and pleasure. If the computer could simulate these things, I think it would be conscious or something very much like consciousness.

So, something cannot be conscious unless it has some dependency to the physical world? Aren't computer programs already dependent on something in the physical world already - electricity? Or is it just the desire for the object in the physical world? If it's just the desire, then we cannot say a tree is conscious, as there's no proof it desires, even though it's dependent on a physical environment. A tree responds in much the same way a computer program would if given the same command line.

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin:)

All life is desire, the desire to survive, built into every organism is the fear of death. The reach of the tree to extened its roots into the soil and its branching and leafing towards the sun is an indication of said desire. The computer may well need electricity to function but it does not know that and it does not desire it, it feels no need, no pain, no pleasure, it is not conscious.

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@Zetherin,

Zetherin,

I am not talking about some sort of higher realm at all.

I am simply saying that in the dream state the brain is not the tool of implementation. What is being used by the person when dreaming is that awareness of the existence of the inner self.

You ask where this elf resides or its location in the body as though it wa s aphysical organ with a place inside the body cavity, and you assume that if it cannot be physically located than it cannot exist. But can you physically find a thought with a scalpel? Can you physically dissect the love a person feels? Does the lack of phsyical material mean that love does not exist and is not real?

It is emotion and feelings that provide the evidence of the inner self that you seek.

The swelling of pride, the palpitation of anxiety, and the exasperation of love are all realities that take place within the body. Every human has experienced the sensations. Is the very real aching of the heart tangible if dissected? of course not. But we all know the feeling and know that the heart can most definitely ache.

We all know how it can easily skip a beat when that special someone walks by. Is that answered as some sort of physical response to external environment? How then can a pretty girl that you might be attracted to actually physically cause your heart to skip a beat when they have not even made physical contact with you?

We all know about the feelings that occur within our bodies that are a direct result of emotional influx, and as physical as they are felt, they are no more physical than the thought realized in our mind.

This is the inner self! as real as love, hate, fear etc. etc.

It is one's true identity. The awareness of who and what they are.

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@boagie,

I agree with Boagie, or stogie or whatever,lol

Consciousness is awareness with further desire. A comatose person may not be conscious, but the inner self would still desire to remain living. And there is evidence that comatose patients do dream and can hear.

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@Alan McDougall,

Alan McDougall wrote:

hue-man

How can you make this as a statement of fact?

You could only know this if you were a plant

Many biologist think that plants have a means of communication between them I look up the article

Maybe they do have some primitive form of consciousness, but if they do, I think that it is so primitive that we shouldn't even call it consciousness.

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@boagie,

boagie wrote:

Hi All!!

Consciousness is not limited to the mind, the whole body as a multicelluar organism is conscious, anything that is alive is conscious, true there are degrees of consciousness but, life is consciousness. "We are cousins to the trees, made of the same stuff, arranged in differing orders." Carl Sagan

:)PS: It has been said that the subconscious is the consciousness of the body, and as such would constitute the self, consciousness as it is normally considered is but the tip of an iceberg. The body has built a brain the brain did not build the body.

That may be true, because there are certainly variations of consciousness in animals. However, the strict definition of consciousness is awareness of self and environment, and I'm not sure that all awareness is self awareness.

Oh yeah, the brain is the body. I would say that the brain is a part of the body, but the body is not a part of the brain. The brain is most certainly responsible for the higher levels of consciousness exhibited by higher animals. There seems to be a relationship between consciousness and intelligence.

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Does consciousness arise out of having a language?

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