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Is there such a thing as a 'free lunch'?

 
 
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 07:06 pm
During this semester of school I had the opportunity of taking a Cultural Anthropology class -seeing how I completed the majority of my classes for my major- because I just needed some extra credits to help graduate sooner than later. Once in the class the topic of Reciprocity and 'free lunches' came up, which hinges on the idea that nothing we do is ever done purely for 'free'. I put the term free in quotes to signify a deeper meaning than that of our immediate examples of, say, giving someone a 'get well soon' card, or some other trivial illustration along those lines because there are probably other more implicit (or dare I say 'subconscious') reasons for why we do what we do.

So if we do take the example of giving someone a 'get well' card or even a 'thankyou' card obviously we arent expecting anything in return, but that doesnt diminish the concept of reciprocity; for the very act itself is significant to the gift-giver and that is what balances out the exchange between the two. To expound on this from the wiki article, "Generalized reciprocity is the same as virtually uninhibited sharing or giving. It occurs when one person shares goods or labor with another person without expecting anything in return. What makes this interaction "reciprocal" is the sense of satisfaction the giver feels, and the social closeness that the gift fosters." Link

So my question remains: Is there such a thing as either an informal or formal exchange of goods/services that is actually free?
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 2,137 • Replies: 23
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paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 08:27 pm
@Kielicious,
If two people cooperate to obtain breakfast, and for the same amount of effort required to obtain breakfast alone each ends up obtaining enough surplus for lunch, is that a free lunch? Smile
0 Replies
 
Aedes
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 08:32 pm
@Kielicious,
I think it's conventional wisdom wearing a metaphorical cloak. It's not necessarily a metaphysical statement about reality. It's a close cousin of 'too good to be true'.
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 10:17 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes;100737 wrote:
I think it's conventional wisdom wearing a metaphorical cloak. It's not necessarily a metaphysical statement about reality. It's a close cousin of 'too good to be true'.


I'm not sure if it is going so far as to make a metaphysical statement about reality, but even if it was can you provide an example of an act that is free from reciprocation? Because I am having a hard time of finding one.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 10:43 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;100727 wrote:
During this semester of school I had the opportunity of taking a Cultural Anthropology class -seeing how I completed the majority of my classes for my major- because I just needed some extra credits to help graduate sooner than later. Once in the class the topic of Reciprocity and 'free lunches' came up, which hinges on the idea that nothing we do is ever done purely for 'free'. I put the term free in quotes to signify a deeper meaning than that of our immediate examples of, say, giving someone a 'get well soon' card, or some other trivial illustration along those lines because there are probably other more implicit (or dare I say 'subconscious') reasons for why we do what we do.

So if we do take the example of giving someone a 'get well' card or even a 'thankyou' card obviously we arent expecting anything in return, but that doesnt diminish the concept of reciprocity; for the very act itself is significant to the gift-giver and that is what balances out the exchange between the two. To expound on this from the wiki article, "Generalized reciprocity is the same as virtually uninhibited sharing or giving. It occurs when one person shares goods or labor with another person without expecting anything in return. What makes this interaction "reciprocal" is the sense of satisfaction the giver feels, and the social closeness that the gift fosters." Link

So my question remains: Is there such a thing as either an informal or formal exchange of goods/services that is actually free?


Of course. I often give gifts to my grandchildren without expecting any reciprocity from them. Of course, I would not give the gift unless I wanted to do so. But how is that doing it for getting something back? Of course, you can define the idea of reciprocity so broadly that just wanting to give the gift, and satisfying the want implies reciprocity. But then, of course, it becomes meaningless.
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 10:52 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;100754 wrote:
Of course. I often give gifts to my grandchildren without expecting any reciprocity from them. Of course, I would not give the gift unless I wanted to do so. But how is that doing it for getting something back? Of course, you can define the idea of reciprocity so broadly that just wanting to give the gift, and satisfying the want implies reciprocity. But then, of course, it becomes meaningless.


Even though I'm not the one defining it, I still don't see how its meaningless. If people are only doing things to get something in return, whether it'd be formal or informal, then that seems rather significant to me.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 10:58 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;100760 wrote:
Even though I'm not the one defining it, I still don't see how its meaningless. If people are only doing things to get something in return, whether it'd be formal or informal, then that seems rather significant to me.


But what makes you think that I am giving gifts to my grandchildren to get something in return? I just told you I am not. If you think that I was anyway, then you must think I was lying.
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 11:05 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;100763 wrote:
But what makes you think that I am giving gifts to my grandchildren to get something in return? I just told you I am not. If you think that I was anyway, then you must think I was lying.


From what was stated above. Obviously you aren't expecting something in return from them, I said this in the original post, but rather the gift-giver is reciprocating him/herself.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 11:06 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;100766 wrote:
From what was stated above. Obviously you aren't expecting something in return from them, I said this in the original post, but rather the gift-giver is reciprocating him/herself.


I was? How is that?
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 11:10 pm
@kennethamy,
"What makes this interaction "reciprocal" is the sense of satisfaction the giver feels, and the social closeness that the gift fosters."

To be clear, I am playing a bit of the devil's advocate because I hardly know anything about cultural anthropology, and I dont want this to get personal, but again Im just seeing if there is a clear example that doesnt fit the definition of reciprocity from an anthropological perspective.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 11:15 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;100769 wrote:
"What makes this interaction "reciprocal" is the sense of satisfaction the giver feels, and the social closeness that the gift fosters."

To be clear, I am playing a bit of the devil's advocate because I hardly know anything about cultural anthropology, and I dont want this to get personal, but again Im just seeing if there is a clear example that doesnt fit the definition of reciprocity from an anthropological perspective.


But why do you think I felt satisfaction? And, if I did, why do you think I gave the gift in order to feel satisfaction? Actually, I gave the gift in order to please my grandchildren.
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 11:19 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;100771 wrote:
But why do you think I felt satisfaction? And, if I did, why do you think I gave the gift in order to feel satisfaction? Actually, I gave the gift in order to please my grandchildren.


I suppose the reply back by an anthro would be that seeing your grand kids do good makes you feel good. Likewise, seeing them happy by the gift makes you happy. Do you feel good or bad when you give a gift to someone?
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 11:30 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;100772 wrote:
I suppose the reply back by an anthro would be that seeing your grand kids do good makes you feel good. Likewise, seeing them happy by the gift makes you happy. Do you feel good or bad when you give a gift to someone?


Sometimes. It depends. But that need not be my motive. I think the view you are expressing is one that is not empirical, but one that you make true by definition. All it means is that when you are not actually forced to give a gift, you do it voluntarily. That is why I called it "meaningless". Of course, when I give a gift, I want to do it. Who ever thought differently? Anthropologists need not tell us that. The next person I meet on the street will tell me that if I ask him, and he is not surprised that I don't know that people give gifts voluntarily.
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 11:41 pm
@Kielicious,
The reciprocity in question and discussed in most cultural anthropology classes is not a reciprocity of conscious expectation in respect to specific actions or "presents", it is a reciprocity of function inherent in the system. Ken does not expect anything back from his grandchildren consciously but he does expect them to fulfill their roles as grandchildren as do they expect and he expects himself to fulfill his role as grandfather. In a social contract sort of scenario the reciprocity is demonstrated in the fulfillment of role not in the actual gift giving. Ken fulfills his role as grandfather and thus demonstrating his expectation of his grandchildren fulfilling their roles, when they do the reciprocity is shown and Ken is then required as well to continue fulfillinghis role, and the cycle continues and shifts as he and the grandchildren get older and their roles change. This smae phenomenon is generally expressed in all relationships a person has. So when in Anthrpology things like the Potlach are discussed, they are discussed as an oversimplified example of the system of reciprocity not the typical example.
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Fri 30 Oct, 2009 11:58 pm
@kennethamy,
kennethamy;100775 wrote:
Sometimes. It depends. But that need not be my motive. I think the view you are expressing is one that is not empirical, but one that you make true by definition. All it means is that when you are not actually forced to give a gift, you do it voluntarily. That is why I called it "meaningless". Of course, when I give a gift, I want to do it. Who ever thought differently? Anthropologists need not tell us that. The next person I meet on the street will tell me that if I ask him, and he is not surprised that I don't know that people give gifts voluntarily.


Yes I agree, but I just don't go so far to say its meaningless. I understand its true by definition (or at least seems that way) but I think there is some value added even if its just considered an awareness factor of what is the human psyche...:detective:

BTW good reply Gosh!
0 Replies
 
RDanneskjld
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 05:12 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;100727 wrote:
So my question remains: Is there such a thing as either an informal or formal exchange of goods/services that is actually free?

There is simply no such thing as a free lunch, in Economics for sure. As every action has an opportunity cost (The next best thing you could do with your resources). So for example if Gosh decided to take you out for lunch the opportunity cost may be the time you could have spent discussing Philosophy on Philosophyforum.com which you may value as $10 an hour.
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 08:14 am
@RDanneskjld,
R.Danneskjöld;100784 wrote:
There is simply no such thing as a free lunch, in Economics for sure. As every action has an opportunity cost (The next best thing you could do with your resources). So for example if Gosh decided to take you out for lunch the opportunity cost may be the time you could have spent discussing Philosophy on Philosophyforum.com which you may value as $10 an hour.


The notion of a free lunch originates from the time bars would offer a small lunch while drinking your beer, but not charge for it. It was free because it was not added to the bill. And that is, of course true. In that context, when you did not have to pay for the lunch, it was free. Words have meaning only in context. So, that perhaps the lunch was offered free because it served as an inducement to drink at that bar, does not mean it was not free in the context of what was meant. The air you breathe is free, because you don't have to pay for it. But that does not mean you don't have to make the effort to breathe it. To say that the air is not free because you have to make an effort to breathe it just confuses the issue. It commits the fallacy of switching the context. The lunch and the air are free in one context. Not free in another context. But that does not mean they are not free in the context we are discussing. This is how some philosophical pseudo-problems are born. By confusion.
0 Replies
 
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 12:32 pm
@RDanneskjld,
R.Danneskjöld;100784 wrote:
There is simply no such thing as a free lunch, in Economics for sure. As every action has an opportunity cost (The next best thing you could do with your resources). So for example if Gosh decided to take you out for lunch the opportunity cost may be the time you could have spent discussing Philosophy on Philosophyforum.com which you may value as $10 an hour.



Exactly. Of course people can look take the question at face value and say that last week they got a free T-shirt at a basketball game, and didnt pay anything for it, but thats not what is meant or intended by the question. The subtlety is there and appropriate reasons behind it. All in all, Im getting pretty interested in anthropology and behavioral economics.Smile
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 01:01 pm
@Kielicious,
Kielicious;100847 wrote:
Exactly. Of course people can look take the question at face value and say that last week they got a free T-shirt at a basketball game, and didnt pay anything for it, but thats not what is meant or intended by the question. The subtlety is there and appropriate reasons behind it. All in all, Im getting pretty interested in anthropology and behavioral economics.Smile


But wasn't the T-shirt free? I do not see what "opportunity cost" would have to do with whether the T-shirt was free. Do you? What opportunity did is cost to get the T-shirt. What could I have had instead? I don't get it. You can be as subtle as you like. But at the same time, you should say something true.
0 Replies
 
paulhanke
 
  1  
Reply Sat 31 Oct, 2009 10:54 pm
@GoshisDead,
GoshisDead;100776 wrote:
The reciprocity in question and discussed in most cultural anthropology classes is not a reciprocity of conscious expectation in respect to specific actions or "presents", it is a reciprocity of function inherent in the system.


... is it an assumption in anthropology that reciprocity is a zero-sum game? ... if so, why do we play it? ... that is, if there's no "free lunch" to be had from playing the reciprocity game, what is its evolutionary worth? ...
 

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