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Common Misconceptions of Scientific Terms

 
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 May, 2009 10:58 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen wrote:
I don't have any formal education in science either.

But I think it's fair that for the needs of a particular subject are met with exacting descriptions of what applicable terms mean in order to clarify.

Note that it is the colloquial use of the word theory that is vague - not the scientific one.
If we where having a science examination i could see the point of determining the correct approach.Facts are facts observations are observations..In the real world nothing is so definite as the theoretical world of science.Science must accept that there other ways of approaching a subject without conforming to a strict code of scientific formality.
Kielicious
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 May, 2009 04:19 pm
@xris,
Xris:

You seem to have a problem with science in that it changes, right?

xris wrote:
Today's theory is tomorrows myth


xris wrote:
Should i take the doctors advice today because tomorrow he might tell me it(s) killing me(?)


So you're more comfortable with dogmatism?

You also talk about monopoles as some sort of example against scientific theory, even though they were predicted by and discovered by scientific theory! See the double edge sword you're playing with? You cant pick and choose what science does and only look at the negative. Not to mention, I'm guessing you're referring to the New Scientist issue, the monopole example is only a stepping stone to the actual monopoles physicists are looking for:

New Scientist wrote:
These might not be the monopoles of physics lore-but they could provide the first clues as to how those legendary beasts behave


Also, theories are altered all the time but not necessarily false (i.e. evolution)

The "theory" of aether wasnt really a theory. There werent any supporting evidence for it and thats why it was dropped. People called it a "theory" but in reality it was only speculation with no evidence.

Again, it seems to be the implication, and by all means correct me if I'm wrong, that the fact that science changes and is self-correcting bothers you? That self-correcting makes science unreliable? Well, you can definately spin that in a negative way but I'm sure we can agree that the positive and progress of science has outweighed the negative tremendously. It seems to me that self-correction is more of a positive attribute than a negative one.

Edit: also like Dave Allen already pointed out, the flat-earth "theory" also wasnt a theory.
xris
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 04:51 am
@Kielicious,
Kielicious wrote:
Xris:

You seem to have a problem with science in that it changes, right?





So you're more comfortable with dogmatism?

You also talk about monopoles as some sort of example against scientific theory, even though they were predicted by and discovered by scientific theory! See the double edge sword you're playing with? You cant pick and choose what science does and only look at the negative. Not to mention, I'm guessing you're referring to the New Scientist issue, the monopole example is only a stepping stone to the actual monopoles physicists are looking for:



Also, theories are altered all the time but not necessarily false (i.e. evolution)

The "theory" of aether wasnt really a theory. There werent any supporting evidence for it and thats why it was dropped. People called it a "theory" but in reality it was only speculation with no evidence.

Again, it seems to be the implication, and by all means correct me if I'm wrong, that the fact that science changes and is self-correcting bothers you? That self-correcting makes science unreliable? Well, you can definately spin that in a negative way but I'm sure we can agree that the positive and progress of science has outweighed the negative tremendously. It seems to me that self-correction is more of a positive attribute than a negative one.

Edit: also like Dave Allen already pointed out, the flat-earth "theory" also wasnt a theory.
Why should science changing its mind bother me? why or how did you make that assumption? I said theories change, observations or facts dont.A fact is a fact an observation is an observation.Yesterdays theory by new facts and new observations make old theories myths.If a theory contains false facts what are they?False theories or theories with faults in them.When does a new theory become valid and an old theory revised?The most important part of any scientific endeavour is speculation not a theory that has no value by new observation.Observation ,inquisitive speculation,facts and then a theory, but what do i know im only a layman.
0 Replies
 
Dave Allen
 
  1  
Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 06:02 am
@Kielicious,
I sometimes study a bit of music. If you talk to a musician about keys, or flat and sharp, it may not mean the same thing to them as things you unlock doors with, or the opposite of blunt.

This does not make musicians eliteists in my eyes, but they require their terms in order to describe things which make sense in respect to their craft and the philosophy behind it.

I don't think it makes scientists eliteist to point out that when they use the term "theory" it means something more important than "fact" or "observation" - just in the same way a musician uses the term "key" to mean a collection of tones rather than something that opens locks.

It is actually the facts and observations that are under greater suspicion - if you will - because they can be subject to exception, or generated via subjective processes, or whatever.

For example: the fact that carbon dating the shells of sea creatures gives wildly innaccurate results does not impinge on the general body of knowledge gathered by carbon dating - because the method by which certain animnals ingest carbon throughout their lives is understood.

In actuality, when facts are shown to be at odds with the theory it is usually a pointer to scientists to look at the facts and see why they are causing the abberations - it's usually something to do with them rather than the theory itself.

I'm with Kielicious in thinking that "theories" such as flat earth or aether are "theories" in the colloquial sense - not theories as understood by science like the theory of evolution or the theory of gravity. However, it may be that there have been scientific theories that have been overturned since Galileo's time - but I honestly can't think of one. Even if a few have most have gone on to become significant bodies of nderstanding, and to say they have become myths is a wildly misleading claim.

In fact, scientific processes feed the majority of people on this planet, and provide ever better healthcare. I myself have been saved by science on the operating table twice. Despite it's occassional misuse, I think it's pretty ungrateful of people to treat it as some blundering innaccurate process - let alone a "myth".
xris
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 06:56 am
@Dave Allen,
Dave Allen wrote:
I sometimes study a bit of music. If you talk to a musician about keys, or flat and sharp, it may not mean the same thing to them as things you unlock doors with, or the opposite of blunt.

This does not make musicians eliteists in my eyes, but they require their terms in order to describe things which make sense in respect to their craft and the philosophy behind it.

I don't think it makes scientists eliteist to point out that when they use the term "theory" it means something more important than "fact" or "observation" - just in the same way a musician uses the term "key" to mean a collection of tones rather than something that opens locks.

It is actually the facts and observations that are under greater suspicion - if you will - because they can be subject to exception, or generated via subjective processes, or whatever.

For example: the fact that carbon dating the shells of sea creatures gives wildly innaccurate results does not impinge on the general body of knowledge gathered by carbon dating - because the method by which certain animnals ingest carbon throughout their lives is understood.

In actuality, when facts are shown to be at odds with the theory it is usually a pointer to scientists to look at the facts and see why they are causing the abberations - it's usually something to do with them rather than the theory itself.

I'm with Kielicious in thinking that "theories" such as flat earth or aether are "theories" in the colloquial sense - not theories as understood by science like the theory of evolution or the theory of gravity. However, it may be that there have been scientific theories that have been overturned since Galileo's time - but I honestly can't think of one. Even if a few have most have gone on to become significant bodies of nderstanding, and to say they have become myths is a wildly misleading claim.

In fact, scientific processes feed the majority of people on this planet, and provide ever better healthcare. I myself have been saved by science on the operating table twice. Despite it's occassional misuse, I think it's pretty ungrateful of people to treat it as some blundering innaccurate process - let alone a "myth".
What was the operation for getting your nickers out of twist? I have no problem with science or scientists just an opinion that has the presumption that im right by rights alone.Just answer my questions instead of resorting to trying to explain the difference between myths and theories.One scientist may agree with you but a hundred will not,does that make them ungrateful to their peers?
Dave Allen
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 07:33 am
@xris,
xris wrote:
What was the operation for getting your nickers out of twist?

Oh, how very grown up of you. You're welcome to your opinion by all means.
Kielicious
 
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Reply Fri 22 May, 2009 03:32 pm
@Dave Allen,
Lets try and keep this civil.

If you have any questions xris I'll do my best to answer them ok
memester
 
  1  
Reply Sun 14 Jun, 2009 03:53 am
@Kielicious,
Doesn't this disagreement over science and self correction involve at least two different meanings of the word "science" ?
One being the body of knowledge, and one being the method and the people and so on?
Should "science " should have been on the list ? :perplexed:
0 Replies
 
 

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