Compassion and what follows....

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What is compassion? Heres some ideas of how I would break it down.

Love is who you are. Compassion is what keeps you breathing. I believe No one is without it. Any conversation you have is based on this. You ask someone about something and you trust in their compassion to answer. You yell or argue with somebody to try and relate the compassion you feel about something. You walk away because you remember that hate and fear do not compare to another's own compassion. Which I believe is only separated by the minds process. Yep, whatever is rational is actually harmful in my mind. Meaning, nothing is relatively rational without a connection. Connection is compassion.

This is just word play, that I am currently using to describe my fundamental truth.

Anyways I have questions that I'm curious about the answers. Where isn't compassion relevant in every single word or action? Is there anything more important?

There only only two slightly different forms of compassion in my opinion, although they are linked alot of the time.

1. inner compassion

and

2. Compassion for others (What is conscious out side of your self) speaking of which. It is the only other thing that compassion can be applied to directly. Without compassion or love how could I be sure of your consciousness.

Summing up my little rant here, I'll start by weening out possible examples against compassion.........

You see a homeless man on the curb. He looks like he is hungry. Do you give him money to eat? If not, why?
whatever the reason. It cant be denied, that it is a lack of compassion.

14 compassions in one post beat that. lol.

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@Joe,

Joe;44180 wrote:

You see a homeless man on the curb. He looks like he is hungry. Do you give him money to eat?

(Silly, you can't eat money!)
Did he tell you that he's hungry and request assistance? If not, see my definition of 'compassion' below.

Quote:

If not, why?

He didn't ask?
At this point, perhaps a (-n ego/vanity free) definition of 'charity';
"'Charity' is not taking more than your share."
Simple.

Quote:

whatever the reason. It cant be denied, that it is a lack of compassion.

Perhaps according to your definition, not according to 'this' definition;

"Compassion means that we recognise their need for their present condition, and give them our love and understanding."

That presupposes, of course, the we actually have/live that 'deep' recognition and understanding.

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@Joe,

Joe wrote:

There only only two slightly different forms of compassion in my opinion, although they are linked alot of the time.

1. inner compassion

and

2. Compassion for others (What is conscious out side of your self) speaking of which. It is the only other thing that compassion can be applied to directly. Without compassion or love how could I be sure of your consciousness.

Quick question: What is "inner compassion"?

1 Reply

@Khethil,

Compassion for the self, though I suppose you can't have both, so now I'm confused.:puzzled:

1 Reply

@Holiday20310401,

Holiday20310401 wrote:

Compassion for the self, though I suppose you can't have both, so now I'm confused.

Yea me too.

I'm sure there could be such a thing, I suppose. But compassion-for-self, to me, is something else. So yea... hoping for a response here that untangles my head :perplexed:

1 Reply

@Khethil,

Inner compassion is kind of like this(to me)

My lungs breath in air, My eyes let me see, so on and so on.

Compassion for my thoughts, because technically I dont have them they just appear.

Compassion for happiness, sadness, etc.....

Because I have compassion for these things pertaining to myself, it makes it effortless most of the time to have compassion for others who experience the same things more or less. Very Happy

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@Joe,

Joe wrote:

What is compassion? Heres some ideas of how I would break it down.

Love is who you are. Compassion is what keeps you breathing. I believe No one is without it. Any conversation you have is based on this. You ask someone about something and you trust in their compassion to answer. You yell or argue with somebody to try and relate the compassion you feel about something. You walk away because you remember that hate and fear do not compare to another's own compassion. Which I believe is only separated by the minds process. Yep, whatever is rational is actually harmful in my mind. Meaning, nothing is relatively rational without a connection. Connection is compassion.

This is just word play, that I am currently using to describe my fundamental truth.

Anyways I have questions that I'm curious about the answers. Where isn't compassion relevant in every single word or action? Is there anything more important?

There only only two slightly different forms of compassion in my opinion, although they are linked alot of the time.

1. inner compassion

and

2. Compassion for others (What is conscious out side of your self) speaking of which. It is the only other thing that compassion can be applied to directly. Without compassion or love how could I be sure of your consciousness.

Summing up my little rant here, I'll start by weening out possible examples against compassion.........

You see a homeless man on the curb. He looks like he is hungry. Do you give him money to eat? If not, why?
whatever the reason. It cant be denied, that it is a lack of compassion.

14 compassions in one post beat that. lol.

I like the common definition of the word compassion which is, "the conscious awareness of the distress of another, and the desire to alleviate it".

It is this desire which is or is not within us, that would define us as a compassionate person, or a person who does not care. With that in mind, a compassionate act is a result of the "emotion" of desire or another word, "love".

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@Joe,

Joe;44180 wrote:

What is compassion? Heres some ideas of how I would break it down. ... Connection is compassion."

Hi Joe,

I liked your "connection is compassion" and believe you are correct. Smile

Whether you are bound to a person, an emotion, or a thought - you are inexplicably surrounded and immersed by that idea or object and through that connection one learns, or rather experiences - compassion. :Not-Impressed:I don't believe one 'thinks' compassion, but experiences it. Whether you 'do' something or not is because you either have the 'connection' or you don't. I also believe that once you have experienced a genuine moment of compassion, it usually becomes easier to establish the needed connection to respond in this way. I think this is what having children does for many people.

What brought me here was this question: Which one would be an act of compassion and why? A person who has always been committed to being a free bird is 'suddenly' in frail health. They live day to day in an institution, with no hope of returning home, or visiting any family. Even outings are getting impossible. To stay alive they must have a series of medical treatments to keep them alive. For some unknown reason, they refuse treatment. Then due to refusing treatment, they lose begin acting completely insane (medical term not loose social term).

Do you presume the madness incapcitates their decision making and force treatment to try and 'bring them back to reality'? Or do you interpret the refusal as a 'conscious decision to die'? Let them go mad and die sooner from the lack of medical intervention? Which one is compassion? Do you have compassion for the madness and force treatment so they can live a bit longer in the institution without freedom? Or do you have compassion for the caged rat and ignore their incapacity to make rational decisions and therefore put themselves at death's door?

A brief and free mad death song or a longer and unhealthy caged life? Which one should we have compassion for?

CMJL

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@Joe,

hi cmjl-
they made the decision before the madness set in, so i would go along with it.

sometimes people start off that way then change their minds at the last minue-happened to someone i know. he had a great epiphany near the end of his life that he wouldnt have had if he had not suffered and lived long enough to reach it. but everything was his choice, and that is the greatest dignity, isnt it?

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@Joe,

Yes this statement would be true for you and I ... people who have had sustained periods of time with 'real' sanity in their lives. But what of the person who begins 'insane' or suffers from some mental defect? What if this person was somehow mentally 'handicapped'? At what point do you stop making decisions for them due to their 'handicap' and at what point do you allow for the possibility this is their choice?

Essentially, this is the ethical dilemma. When is one acting from compassion and when is one acting from hubris?

0 Replies

@Joe,

this is speaking from personal experience-
there certainly are mental states that are so painful it isnt worth living-and there is no way of knowing whether or not they will ever end. i dont believe you can go by what any doctor will predict as far as prognosis, if they even will predict any such thing, because one can be changed so completely in one night that they will never again feel that kind of pain and despair and will be grateful for each new day even if it brings sorrow and misfortune. or they may go on the rest of their days with no improvement, the best that life can offer them being sedation and senselessness.

the dilemma is then, suppose you know a person who is in this condition, not just today but has led this kind of mental state for years, and you know he has bought a gun and gone off to shoot himself. do you stop him, or call the police, or just let him go?

i would say that if you stop him or try to in any way, you should be prepared to be responsible for his suffering afterwards, and know that you are the one who maintained it, which is more likely what will be the result as opposed to the chance of it ending some day in the future after who knows how much more pain. hubris will go away, i think.

and if you say nothing and let him go, know that you could have stopped him from pulling the trigger, but you couldnt stop his pain-so what would your interfering have accomplished?

it's a terrible decision to have to make...

1 Reply

@salima,

Yes Salima you have characterized the dilemma: 'stop them from pulling the trigger but not stop the pain.' I would have no issue with a person pulling the trigger themselves ... only they know what level of pain is unbearable and the full meaning of their suffering.

The real dilemma becomes difficult when the decision making is in someone else's hands. I am one of those decision makers, doctors are another set, social workers, nurses, etc. Everyone has their thoughts on the issue. The situation I face is a personal one. The problem arises when the person does not decide for themselves due to mental incapacity and everyone is making these decisions for them. The person gets their whole life caught up in this philosophical debate which has very real implications for their physical and emotional existence. But more importantly the decision has huge social implications.

For example, if we decide that the person is incapable and therefore force treatment 'for their own good' then that has big social implications. For example, sterilization was a standard procedure the mentally ill. Is that right?

As a society, we need to understand this type of dilemma in order to make sound law. If you were judging a case like this, what issues would you consider?

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@Joe,

actually i never knew that it was standard procedure anywhere in america...you are talking about institutionalized cases? because those could be checked easily enough.

what are the issues of the case exactly? it involves sterilization? is this person confined? do they have a legal guardian? etc etc...

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@salima,

Hi Salima,

Sterilization was a common procedure for the insane once they were institutionalized. Laws for the mentally ill have changed dramatically since the 1970s in Canada. They now have the right to refuse treatment, but the echo of hubris actions of the past still remain.

The current situation is my father who is schizophrenic and a failing liver. He used to live with his mother, but she is now 89 years old and incapable of tending to her own needs and was placed in a home. Luckily, I was able to arrange having both of them be placed in the same home. My grandmother is content there but my father feels like its a jail. He cannot go out without an escort and must come back within certain time limits a curfew. Due to this feeling of incarceration, my father continually tries to run away. He always comes back when he is hungry, but the institution is afraid he won't make it back at some point. I have reassured them that liability issues are not an worry since I see the problems they face. In any case, over the last two months he has begun to refuse all treatments. Now he is losing his bearings without he meds and his liver is failing. Blood transfusions etc will extend his life by a maximum of 5-6 months. However, he now living in an institution and the only respite is a hospital visit where he is given injections, blood transfusions, etc. The most common one is to place him in a coma so that the internal bleeding stops. Each time they do this he loses more and more of his mental capacity and physical functioning. I do not want to be hasty and say no treatments, but 'living' in a coma? Then there is always the if I do nothing ... his organs will simply fail at some point. Finally I am doing all this decision making from a distance of 3000 km away. My daughter is here and I cannot go back home. I no other family who could help out with the situation either. Just me and doctors, etc.

That's it Salima. Please let me know what you think. Smile

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@Joe,

CMJL-
I really still have a lot of gaps in the story that would make it impossible for me to be of much help other than to ask more questions.

about the institution:
is this institution funded by the government where your father stays? are they willing and able to deal with his behavior? do they not penalize him for running away or do anything to try and ensure his compliance to rules? will they feed him if he doesnt live there, but just wants to have food? will they ever refuse to allow him back or feed him or give medical treatment? do they never use force to administer treatments, meds or sedatives?

about your father:
is he any danger to others, does he become violent or get in fights and attack people? has he ever endangered himself, does he wander into traffic on the freeway or walk along bridges on the overpass as though he may fall off? has he attempted suicide or threatened it?

about the medical care:
the treatment you are referring to, would extend his life by only five or six months from when? you mean beyond the point at which he would eventually succumb to death which could be any unknown time in the future? and if he is allowed by law to refuse meds, he can also refuse treatment, so how is this your dilemma?

we are going back almost four years now to any experience with this for me, and in another country yet, the usa. most of the homeless there are mentally ill or substance abusers (hard not to be mentally ill if one abuses substances for decades) and they were often provided places to stay, but ran away preferring their freedom. they did not want to conform to hygiene standards,etc...and yet they caused no harm to anyone, and though they could need medical treatment now and then they were surviving on their own terms. i also lived in a cold climate in usa, and routinely on the way to work many of the office workers and shopkeepers would leave cups of coffee or donuts next to the people who slept over the grates in the sidewalk for warmth. the police would ask them to move on, but they generally did when business opened up.

1 Reply

@salima,

salima;80874 wrote:

about the institution:
is this institution funded by the government where your father stays? are they willing and able to deal with his behavior? do they not penalize him for running away or do anything to try and ensure his compliance to rules? will they feed him if he doesnt live there, but just wants to have food? will they ever refuse to allow him back or feed him or give medical treatment? do they never use force to administer treatments, meds or sedatives? .

CMJL - gov institute, can't deal with the behaviour, no penalty (because of my interference - without my interference he would be on a locked ward), no he would have no home or food. If force is necessary he is sent to hospital.

salima;80874 wrote:

about your father:
is he any danger to others, does he become violent or get in fights and attack people? has he ever endangered himself, does he wander into traffic on the freeway or walk along bridges on the overpass as though he may fall off? has he attempted suicide or threatened it?

CMJL - Yes, he attacked a police officer last week and molests the care staff in the home. Yes he is a danger to himself. No he has never attempted suicide.

salima;80874 wrote:

about the medical care:
the treatment you are referring to, would extend his life by only five or six months from when? you mean beyond the point at which he would eventually succumb to death which could be any unknown time in the future? and if he is allowed by law to refuse meds, he can also refuse treatment, so how is this your dilemma?

CMJL - From today. He was given a year to live last year due to his liver. The doctors warned me that this time was coming. Everything is going the way the doctors have deemed. He will succumb to death because he is no longer producing white blood cells and he will eventually become septic, and his organs will fail, and he will die. Yes he can refuse meds and treatment.

salima;80874 wrote:

we are going back almost four years now to any experience with this for me, and in another country yet, the usa. most of the homeless there are mentally ill or substance abusers (hard not to be mentally ill if one abuses substances for decades) and they were often provided places to stay, but ran away preferring their freedom. they did not want to conform to hygiene standards,etc...and yet they caused no harm to anyone, and though they could need medical treatment now and then they were surviving on their own terms. i also lived in a cold climate in usa, and routinely on the way to work many of the office workers and shopkeepers would leave cups of coffee or donuts next to the people who slept over the grates in the sidewalk for warmth. the police would ask them to move on, but they generally did when business opened up.

This is my dilemma. Do I let him 'escape' and live on the streets hungry and free for a few ??? could only be days if he was without medical attention. Or do I keep him in the home for a year continuously undergoing treatments but no freedom or joy. What is the criteria for compassion here? While the personal anecdote is real, I remain uncertain as to what is really compassionate. Is it the personal choice respected?

For me, let me be free and homeless for a week than incarcerated and weak for one year. If there was a hope of full recovery, then it would be different, but you know this is it. How do you want to live the last days of your life? And if there ae people out there who deal with life and death regularly, how does one decide ... this one should be homeless ... and this one should be treated? Both stances are valid. Is it possible to be valid simultaneously? What would that look like?

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@Joe,

CMJL-
dont know why i said four years, it must be over ten years now that i knew anything about the homeless in america.

anyway i always respected them-that to me is a main ingredient of compassion. otherwise it becomes pity. so if they ask me for money, i gave it gladly without wondering or stipulating what they were going to do with it. if they said they were hungry i would offer to buy them food or give them something i had with me, and if they didnt take it and said they wanted money then i would refuse to give it to them because they werent being honest in the first place. but almost always they would ask for money not food. as a thank you, they used to say such lovely things to me sometimes, and i would write them down on file cards when i got to work and use them for bookmarks. they meant a lot to me...and people always told me what a fool i was and not to give them anything. but it wasnt the money i was giving them that meant anything, that was only the vehicle; it was acknowledgement and respect. and just like the money, it was up to them what they wanted to make out of it.

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@Joe,

So we have respect, freedom to choose, honouring one's wishes, validation and seeing them as equals (friend rather than foe) ...

How does one honour the wishes of an insane man? Or an unstable man in this type of scenario?

1 Reply

@CMJL,

CMJL;80882 wrote:

So we have respect, freedom to choose, honouring one's wishes, validation and seeing them as equals (friend rather than foe) ...

How does one honour the wishes of an insane man? Or an unstable man in this type of scenario?

i think as long as he is a danger to anyone he belongs in a locked ward. that is the bottom line. compassion for potential victims...

as far as the treatments go, if it is required that you allow permission for them or permission to forego them, and afterwards he may give his permission or not-you can choose to do whatever would cause less physical pain to him, since his mental pain will probably be equal once he is under lock and key.

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@Joe,

Your comment about having compassion for the victims means I am really facing a different dilemma altogether. That would mean lock and key for him, something I know he would hate ... summoning courage is really a different matter isn't it.

But for the sake of argument, let's say he is not a real danger to others. Everything else stands.

How does one compassionately respond to the unstable/insane man/woman is such a situation?

How does the medical community respond to this ethical question? Is it sufficient, and if not what is missing?

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Compassion and what follows....

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