Do you Pay....

Finally, yes, you are correct that you'd have to survey the voting public about whether they'd want income taxes to know for sure. But come on, if you presented this in a way that made clear what our country would be like without income taxes, you know as well as I that taxes would win in a heartbeat.

I think that would first have to be discussed, which you know that never will happen. And so in my opinion we will continue to let the government to move and shake our money with out any observation.

I may be young but I know what happens with that money. Our country spends it in the wrong ways and with out any REAL representation. Taxes should be as much as each individual wants them. In todays "democracy". which we all know it isn't. We have a central private bank. This bank has no laws, they make them.'

in my opinion we will continue to let the government to move and shake our money with out any observation.

I may be young but I know what happens with that money.

Our country spends it in the wrong ways and with out any REAL representation.

Taxes should be as much as each individual wants them

Well, I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. There may be many fine details we don't know about waste and inefficiency, but the federal budget is 100% open for everyone to review, discuss, call their senators and representatives about, and vote in response to.

That aside, isn't this another debate? I mean you've opened the thread raising the issue of whether income taxes are legal and enforceable; but now you're setting that argument aside and lamenting the government's use of money.

So which are you concerned about? Consider the following two hypothetical scenarios:

1. Taxation is legally 100% unassailable and perfect, but the government wastes money

2. Taxation is based on shabby, shoddy laws, but the government spends the money efficiently and wisely

I know, neither is accurate -- but can you please prioritize for us what your MAIN concern is?

What do you know that the rest of us don't? Are you too young to see some of the ways in which you depend on government spending?

How would you alter our country such that you would consider representation "real"?

Sure, I'm happy to drive on the interstate, submit bills to Medicare and Medicaid, get my training in a Medicare-subsidized residency program, apply for research grants from the NIH, have someone figure out what's causing that epidemic of viral hepatitis, have someone keep the nuclear power plant from dumping waste in my bathtub, accrue social security, and have someone build F14 tomcats to keep the Canadians from invading Vermont -- as long as everyone else pays for it.

Your are not offering me any reflection.

Instead you sound as if your defending our democratic government to the teeth. I'm not sure what thats about.

As to your general questions?

1. you turn arguments into black vs. white

heres a question that I dont know the answer to. How much value is behind the American dollar?

What about if we unionize with Canada and Mexico.

That's because you haven't offered anything to reflect upon. What I'm TRYING to do is to encourage you to follow through on your own points to see if legitimate philosophical issues can come from them. You've repeatedly avoided doing so.

I'm playing devil's advocate (i.e. beyond the extent of my own beliefs) because I think you're making baseless assertions.

You changed the subject by whining about government spending about 40+ posts into a thread about codification of tax law.

I offered you a black and white dichotomy to give you the opportunity to choose which was more important. Are you avoiding the question, or do you not get it?

Furthermore, if you're offended by what you see as "black and white" dichotomies, perhaps you should give thoughtful responses rather than one word quips.

Relative to what? Relative to a slice of bread, relative to a chunk of gold, relative to a gallon of gas, or relative to a Euro? The value of the dollar varies.

You mean economically unionize?

Funny, you don't strike me as someone who would like NAFTA very much.

Sure they are. Otherwise no one would ever go to jail for not paying taxes. I have seen the documentary that supposedly 'proves' that no one has to pay taxes, but for some reason many that don't either end up paying more in the end, serving time, or both. As far as I know my father has never paid taxes--not to mention the IRS never bothered him--but I wonder whether they just know it is not worth their time to pursue. It wouldn't surprise me if you actually do not have to pay taxes, but in order to do so, you must not use government support programs or ever pay taxes to begin with, while also not working for anyone, or having others work for you. You never enter that system then to induce inquiries. In other words, you have to be a total economic outlaw of sorts to avoid taxes.