Metallica - All Nightmare Long

@William,

William wrote:

Hey Joe,
In all due respect, it is not I who is feeling a dissociation toward difference. Your defensive posture is of your own making. You took my honest opinion a little to personally, I think. IMO, you are seeking ammunition as to what I like so you can reciprocate. I gave my reason as to why I did not care for a music genre you personally like and that offended you. At least that is what I am gathering. At any rate, so you will not feel so "defensive", I'll give you the ammunition you seek. First off I am a fan of all types of music, none of which will induce "head banging". Call it a personal taste. Such as The Oak Ridge Boys, Enya, Shania Twain, Slim Whitman, Whitney Houston, Celine Dion, Isaac Stern, Santa Esmeralda, The Kingston Trio, The Boston Pops, Patsy Cline, Brenda Lee, Jay and the Americans, Roy Orbison, Elvis Presley, Kenny G, Liberace, Boots Randolf, Henry Mancini.......

Now hopefully from this gathering you will be able to arrive at the answer to your first question as to what music is to me. I will let you draw your own conclusions. As far as your age, I have no idea of how old you are. As to my use of the word "astuteness" was for those who are able to gather any deeper meaning the music was attempting to offer. IMO, an astuteness not realize by the majority of those who cater to this particular genre. Again, my opinion. And again, I could be wrong. I don't know that for sure. Though I think it reasonable considering what Wiki defines a "head banging":

"The term "headbanger" was coined during
's first US tour in 1968 During a show at the Boston Tea Party, audience members in the first row were banging their heads against the stage in rhythm with the music"

I hope this helps.
William

William,

you fail to acknowledge my questioning of your comments. I am the one who realizes my reflection. Where is yours. So I will again state my questions, in hope that you can reflect on your statements with a little more depth.

you said metallica is not music, it is just noise(too you,as you stated). What does a statement like this mean?

I will say that I am curious to the association of this music that you make.

Anyways, what Im trying to get past, is your dislike for the band. Like i said before, I understand this fact. how can we look past this into your perception of what music is? A simple question, with no assumptions in mind.

Thanks

2 Replies

@Joe,

Joe, I think William answered you very clearly that I seen.

I too agree with much of what William has stated. To me, Metallica is not music. The vibrational tones coming from the noise is not that which would make a dandelion grow, it would make it curl. There is a lot of so-called music like that out there.

It may be our age but I know for me it's something much more than that. The music I like is sitting in a hammock near a pond listening to the cattails dance in the wind. When I get into a car and drive 4 hours, I do so in silence with no music. The very best music is silence in my humble opinion.

Once in a great while, I get invited to a friends house who has a game room. In this game room there are pinball machines and electronic jukeboxes and all other kinds of fun stuff... Oh, I cannot forget the Golden Tee golf. Anyway, I've almost stopped going there because these 40+ year old men are playing music and listening to music that is not music at all. A lot of it is Metallica and Kid Rock and other music of the sort. As soon as this type of music begins to play, I simply walk out and leave. I may actually never return just because of their music. It literally hurts my ears and the vibrations sent in the music just don't mesh.

I think William is saying something very similar and has in fact answered your questions. When it comes to music, IMHO Metallica doesn't make the grade. Metallica is noise to myself as it is to William. Noise is noise, it's something that some people don't like.

As far as the band, I wouldn't know enough about the band members to make a judgment on the band itself as to whether I like or dislike them. I certainly dislike the noise they produce.

There's really no point in arguing with or trying to argue with William on his statements. Each of us have different opinions on music. There's nothing really to elaborate on. Everyone vibrates on a different level and someday, you may actually listen to Metallica and it will hurt your ears. When that time comes, you'll understand more than just the music.

0 Replies

@Joe,

Joes questions:

1). You said metallica is not music, it is just noise(too you, as you stated). What does a statement like this mean?

2). I will say that I am curious to the association of this music that you make.

3). Anyways, what Im trying to get past, is your dislike for the band. Like i said before, I understand this fact. how can we look past this into your perception of what music is? A simple question, with no assumptions in mind.

1). Noise is a personal metaphor I have coined to that which is considered "music" by others as I ascribe to "my own" definitions of what constitutes "music", that is bordering on "offensive" to me, personally. Yet to others, it may well be "music". Fine, to each his own. I prefer the axiom "music to my ears" that is indeed, to me at least, those sounds that bring me joy, inspiration, melody that resonates with "me". Heavy Metal, at least the limited times I have been exposed to it, offends my personal sensibilities.
RAP music does the same thing of which I also consider noise, personally.

2). The only association I have made is that genre to the drug culture. Personally, I don't need the added sensory perception drugs offer to enjoy what I consider music. In my personal opinion, if it is truly "music", there should be no need to imbibe anything to enjoy it.

3). I didn't say I disliked the band. I don't care for their "music". Personally, I have no desire to look pass that which I perceive as music. I know it when I hear it as it resonates with me. I am extremely comfortable with that and see no need to defend it and get past anything. I personally like to use "Tide" detergent, that doesn't me you have to.

Joe, let me make a comment here, please if you don't mind. It is not uncommon for people to defend what they have determined is their personal truth that gives their life meaning. IMO, when those personal truths fall outside of the "mainstream" does it become necessary for an attempt to be made to seek justification from others. IMO, again. You need no justification for your personal truth as long as it does not interfere with another's. Go for it. Have a ball.

I understand the drug culture and I know why it exists, and without getting into that, it's a crying shame, IMO. It is my personal opinion our society would go stark raving mad, if it weren't for the drugs people take. Any institution or genre that finds it's livelihood, dependent on that very drug culture is as best and most civil way I can put it, a parasitic entity that thrives on the weak. Please forgive me if I may come across as preachy, but I have no idea of what it is that draws you to this style of music or anyone else for that matter. All I do know and can safely reason is that any venue that requires, as a whole, for those who wish attend, to be stone, to fully enjoy what it has to offer is a no win proposition. Again IMO. I understand the enhancement drugs offer to certain rock music. I know, I've been there.

Joe, I am not picking on you. Please don't think that I am. I am not going to say what you want to hear so you won't be offended. I am going to tell you what I honestly think in such a way, I can only hope you will not get offended. Sometimes that is extremely hard to do and it requires a finesse I strive to attain.

In closing, I would like to say it is my sincere hope that you if you seek justification for your personal truths, you do not attempt to take advantage of the naivete of another youth to do so as you may be prone to do as you sell the idea of how great "head banging" is.
Sincerely,

William

1 Reply

@William,

Ive read your words.......all I can say is agree to disagree.

Thanks

1 Reply

@Joe,

I wouldn't link metal music with drugs. I have a few friends who are pure metal fans so I have been a lot in metal circles in the past. The most common drink when going out on a concert or like was beer. No overdooing needed. And certainly nobody needed any drugs to enjoy the music!

I often compile my own CD compilations for the car stereo and have no problems putting songs from Metallica, Michael Jackson, Death and Sade all on the same CD. It's all music. Different flavours, like different roses on the meadow. Beauty lies in the diversity.

0 Replies

@Joe,

For argument sake and for the love of Rock and Roll, here is Rock that I'd would consider music. "Learn to be still" is the song. It's not Metallica but it's heavy. LOL.
YouTube - Learn To be Still (Eagles)

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@Joe,

This YouTube - Jimmy Ruffin - What Becomes Of The Broken Hearted is not metallic either, but I think it is extemely heavy.

1 Reply

@William,

Justin and William,

Those are Great song choices in my opinion. I hope you dont think that my appreciation for Metal and Hard Rock, Shadows my taste for the softer sides.

I enjoy Herald Melvin, Gary Jules, Bob Dylan, and Phil Collins just to name a small list of my catalog.

Thanks for the posts

0 Replies

@Joe,

De gustibus non disputantur.

Each person has reasons, one would suppose, for preferring one kind of music rather than another. I really don't see the need for being, though, dogmatic in asserting some kind of fanboy proposition about the absolute merits of one brand of drivel over another. (Sorry, I could not resist the irony).

1 Reply

@jgweed,

jgweed wrote:

De gustibus non disputantur.

Each person has reasons, one would suppose, for preferring one kind of music rather than another. I really don't see the need for being, though, dogmatic in asserting some kind of fanboy proposition about the absolute merits of one brand of drivel over another. (Sorry, I could not resist the irony).

Jg,
Irony? I fail to see it. Dogmatic? I fail to see it? Drivel? I fail to see it. It is a matter of perspective, isn't it? It's a matter of taste, also. Fanboy proposition? I have no idea of what that means. If you are associating irony with this just being an argument over a matter that just boils down to "different tastes in music", in all due respect, I totally disagree. Perhaps if we were to develop another genre and call it "sounds" and just leave "music" alone,

Now having said that, let's focus on the real problem. Disoriented youth. Realizing there is nothing I can say that will offer to anyone who finds any measure of solace in this type of "recreation" a means to self evaluate. The die has been cast. Even as it has been said by another member here as to a heavy metal band's attempt to protest drug use. That's like starting the bucket brigade after the barn's burn down. It's a bit late for that.

A little over 40 years ago when we started dismantling the traditional family to make way for the "liberated woman" and, for all practical purposes, force the Mother out of the home, we really screwed up, IMO. Of course the young today have no idea of what I am talking about. I am not saying the family was perfect, but it is essential. Rather that putting focus on the family and taking those measures to strengthen it, we did just the opposite. Leaving the child to fend for themselves as the "stay at home Mom" entered the workforce. We started "warehousing" our children as daycare centers began to pepper the landscape.

Of course at that time, focusing on the child had to take a backseat in that we were only a few years away from killing that very child before it made it's way through the birth canal. I know you may think I am getting off topic here, but I am not. It has everything to do with it. It's just easier to disregard the damage that is being done as we nestle behind the every so popular catch-phase, "That's life". As I remember reading and I am not going to take the time to find the quote, but one feminist said as it relates to their "war" on the traditional family, don't worry about the children, they're resilient, they will survive. And heavy metal is one way in which they are. Along with Std's, suicide, tattoos, body piercing's, unbridled promiscuous sex, pornography, drug use, alcohol abuse, depression, attention deficit disorders as they are desperately trying to find a "reason to be". Of course they had to wonder why they were "allowed" to be considering the 5o million that weren't.

I do agree, in some measure, "this genre" may have a "deeper meaning", but the price of admission only adds to the problem. It's easy to say, it is just another "style of music", what difference does it make.

For those mods who feel I am off topic here, do what you will. But in all sincerity, I think I am right on the mark. IMO. In any respect do as you choose.

William

1 Reply

@Joe,

I cannot believe the amount of disrespect there is on this forum for the autonomy and achievements of women. Nor can I believe the sweeping generalizations here in which you draw a 1:1 correspondance between working women and compromised children.

In most of the history of humankind, and in the virtual entirety of the world, and in the virtual entirety of American social history, women have worked. That is because most families were not like "Leave it to Beaver". Most families have had to scrape together every penny to make ends meet.

Furthermore, it was not the feminist movement that drove women out of homes and into jobs. It was mainly the industrial needs of WWI and WWII.

I just pity my poor son, growing up in a household with a liberal dad and a feminist mom who both work; we're both doctors, and we both value education highly, but our poor son is sure to be a drugged up metalhead because of this. I mean the nerve of my wife, who spent 14 years at Brown, Yale, and Harvard -- what kind of influence is this on our youth?

:listening:

1 Reply

@William,

Hello William,

Quote:

And heavy metal is one way in which they are. Along with Std's, suicide, tattoos, body piercing's, unbridled promiscuous sex, pornography, drug use, alcohol abuse, depression, attention deficit disorders as they are desperately trying to find a "reason to be". Of course they had to wonder why they were "allowed" to be considering the 5o million that weren't.

Again, it is clear that these are negative things. Not everyone indulges like this. To say more then others, is indeed not fact or the bottom line. Where do you see things like this. Movies, magazines, news, interviews, documentary's, books,and people you know or are surrounded by(probably not all over the place in most cases). But maybe it is pushed more to exposure then the positive acts. Think about that. People feel the need to expose negatives over positives all to often, and without realization.

Quote:

I do agree, in some measure, "this genre" may have a "deeper meaning", but the price of admission only adds to the problem. It's easy to say, it is just another "style of music", what difference does it make.

I like how you put that William. It is very honest. So lets see what your self honesty looks like through another persons eye. When you say that someone who listens to Metal music must pay a for the enjoyment of the music. The admission as you called it. This is very true. But would you agree, that in a society where people need venues and outlets to identify with something personal, that it is to be expected. Its easy to say something produces wrong factors in thinking and in social consequence. But that deduction when applied to music and other personal outlets of entertainment, is immature. The entertainment world, is just that, entertainment. There are many on both sides of the fence that hold music, poetry, movies, plays, books, ect...... in a light that is not natural. Of course no one should live by a song or story, but in a world so young in knowledge and wisdom, it is these steps that help us to grow.

So basically, when you say I dont prefer this type of music, there are reasons behind the rock. The physical and the psychological. Unfortunately any degrees of analyzing on the consciousness level are nothing but your own perception. You said it your self. So my question is, When someone questions your perception, why must you defend it as solid and unchangeable. Your conversations lack insight and willingness to connect with another's perception. In a Philosophy forum, I would think it is more accepted here then other situations. This is where my perception stands. We can continue to talk about different music if you like in another appropriate thread. Id genuinely like to discuss what different music barriers hinder our ourselves, me included, to learn just maybe one thing more about human nature and our developing.

Quote:

For those mods who feel I am off topic here, do what you will. But in all sincerity, I think I am right on the mark. IMO. In any respect do as you choose.

There is no such thing as a right or wrong perception. All we can do is discuss the differences reasonably and insightfully.... ha, is that even a word?

0 Replies

@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

I cannot believe the amount of disrespect there is on this forum for the autonomy and achievements of women. Nor can I believe the sweeping generalizations here in which you draw a 1:1 correspondance between working women and compromised children.

In most of the history of humankind, and in the virtual entirety of the world, and in the virtual entirety of American social history, women have worked. That is because most families were not like "Leave it to Beaver". Most families have had to scrape together every penny to make ends meet.

Furthermore, it was not the feminist movement that drove women out of homes and into jobs. It was mainly the industrial needs of WWI and WWII.

I just pity my poor son, growing up in a household with a liberal dad and a feminist mom who both work; we're both doctors, and we both value education highly, but our poor son is sure to be a drugged up metalhead because of this. I mean the nerve of my wife, who spent 14 years at Brown, Yale, and Harvard -- what kind of influence is this on our youth?

:listening:

In any dialog, we must speak in broad perspective's realizing there are exceptions in all cases. What you have just done, and is often done by those who fall outside of that "broad perspective" for there are indeed exceptions, is become defensive and offended. To go even deeper into that perspective,

I agree "Father Knows Best" and "Leave It to Beaver" were ideals that at the time did reflect to some degree what defined the family, I know I had one similar to that. Also understanding there were those not so fortunate. I understand that to. So rather than strengthen the "ideal", we diluted it so those unfortunate individuals who existed "outside" those ideals wouldn't feel abandoned and as a result proceeded to dismantle and destroy that ideal.

As far as you notion of WWI driving women into the workforce, is accurate. I am not talking about women as a whole, I talking about "Mothers". If you can show me proof that WW1 forced "Mother's" out of the home, I will stand corrected.

Call me old fashioned, but IMO, the greatest single event in all the universe is that role woman play's in bringing human life into existence. Bar none. Furthermore, it is the entrenched thinking by some that the human being is nothing more than an animal, man's primary purpose it that of a "sperm donor" and is not needed as it relates to that "balance" needed for a child to have that equilibrium needed to give that child a sense of balance.
In no way am I disparaging the enormous talents of the woman that fall out side of giving birth. Not in the least. It is the war that has ensued by feminist who view the Mother as an abused, oppressed slave is what ushers in my ire.
I was there before this "great liberation" and I was there afterward and the short list I just provided is proof of that "resilience" of the young. My hearty congratulations to you and your wife and your son for being exceptions.

William

1 Reply

@William,

There are lots of exceptions, including among those who have not been lucky enough to have the education I have.

Take a look beyond our borders and you'll see a lot of disaffected, wayward young people (especially boys and young men) in this world. There is nothing unique to our "progressive" culture that explains why this is the case, when you consider that this is true in deeply conservative, traditional societies too.

Where we'll probably find common ground is in the idea that young boys like to have people and ideas to follow, and if they don't get that grounding in their family then they'll find it outside. But it's more the phenomenon of fractured families and fractured schools that does this to them. A mother who works CAN be an immense lesson in responsibility. A father who works but is voluntarily a 100% equal participant in childrearing is ALSO an immense lesson in responsibility.

This is what gives kids internal resources to decide when something is just music they like versus a lifestyle.

And I'd bet you that most kids, whether they listen to hard stuff like Metallica, pop stuff like Britney Spears, or whatever else, are perfectly able to make good choices for themselves as long as they're not in this world on their own and never given an opportunity to lean against someone.

This goes back to the whole media violence issue, doesn't it? There are unambiguous associations between exposure to video and movie violence and violent behavior. But what's also clear is that kids who have resources in their lives are far less susceptible, irrespective of what they're exposed to.

0 Replies

@Joe,

This is an interesting discussion, but I am wary of some of the statements being made here attempting to identify the cause of the disenfranchised youth. I think there can be many causes; for any one young person to run for drugs, suicide, etc., there are different reasons. Maybe, and this might often be the case, they came from a broken home with no mother or no father. Maybe every indication that we could see would give us the impression that the kid had it all going "right", but then he simply fell into the wrong crowd or decided on his own to follow a different path...

When it comes to rebellious music, I think you have to remember where it really gained its strength: the 1960s. And I don't think this was really due to women's liberation from the home, though certainly there were a lot of mothers who felt overwhelmed, confused, or unable to control their children...the kids were also confused, frightened, searching for meaning. This could have been due to many things, but of course the soviet threat and cold war possibility was on the minds of the people...young kids fresh out of high school were being killed with seemingly no purpose in the Vietnam war.

The Rolling Stones even famously wrote their 1965 song "Mother's Little Helper" about the housewife that turns to drugs in order to escape her stress:

Quote:

"Life's just much too hard today / I hear ev'ry mother say / The pursuit of happiness just seems a bore / And if you take more of those / you will get an overdose / No more running for the shelter / of a mother's little helper"

The 60s were fueled by a youth group that felt oppressed by that "Leave it to Beaver" 50s family that wants to stick everyone into a mold and reject individuality...it was fueled by a youth group that felt confused, saddened, hopeless at times when they saw their friends coming home from Vietnam in body bags. The war and the restrictive, idealized 50s household and society were probably the catalysts for an outright rejection of this establishment, and rebellious music and drug use went along with that.

The music of the 1960s went on to produce later bands like Led Zeppelin, which is greatly responsible for influencing more modern groups like Metallica and heavy metal in general. It all comes from the same idea of youth rebellion...I think the general theme behind this rebellion is about the same as it was back in the 60s.

With that said, I also think this particular type of "music" is more like noise, as is most rap and other heavy metal that I have heard, "punk rock", etc. Sounds like a bunch of kids who are depressed/angry and just hit "record" and start screaming about how bad off they have it, when they should instead probably take some time to reflect on their lives in comparison to the lives of many others in this world, and be thankful instead of angry.

The main thing I don't like about rap or metal, is not necessarily the overall sound, but the underlying message. The message of this "music" seems to be, in many respects, rage. It is angry, condemning, negative, even hateful. This, to me, does not qualify as "music"; music does reflect emotion, and anger is a valid emotion. But humans do not thrive on one single emotion, and when your entire album is one of rage and condemnation, it strikes me as being sub-human; you are not presenting the human psyche accurately, you are peddling this "rage" in order to sell records, because these pissed-off disenfranchised youth demand it.

In other words, they are not using music for genuine artistic expression. They are using it to make money. And this is the difference between a true musician, and a self-interested, greedy hack.

2 Replies

@Pangloss,

Pangloss wrote:

The main thing I don't like about rap or metal, is not necessarily the overall sound, but the underlying message. The message of this "music" seems to be, in many respects, rage. It is angry, condemning, negative, even hateful.

You need to listen to more if that's what you think -- and by more I mean both metal and NON-metal. A lot of heavy metal and rap songs are political -- much like the acoustic folk singers from the early 1960s. I mean if you listen to "Masters of War" by Bob Dylan, you hear just as much political anger as in any metal song. And many of these songs are about relationships, about emotions, about imagery, and about narrative.

And examples abound, but if you're willing to make generalizations about entire genera, then I'm not sure how counterexamples are going to convince you otherwise.

1 Reply

@Aedes,

Aedes;39304 wrote:

You need to listen to more if that's what you think -- and by more I mean both metal and NON-metal. A lot of heavy metal and rap songs are political -- much like the acoustic folk singers from the early 1960s. I mean if you listen to "Masters of War" by Bob Dylan, you hear just as much political anger as in any metal song. And many of these songs are about relationships, about emotions, about imagery, and about narrative.

And examples abound, but if you're willing to make generalizations about entire genera, then I'm not sure how counterexamples are going to convince you otherwise.

I realize it is not ALL like this, but compared to other genres of music, on the whole, it is more angry and full of rage. I like some heavy rock and rap, but most of it still seems to be what I have said.

Also, please, I would like you to show me one metal song that can really be compared to Dylan's "Masters of War". Bob may not have the greatest voice, but I can understand his words when I listen to the song. He may not be the best guitarist, but his melodies are simple and sweet. And his lyrics are as good as poetry, in my opinion. You really want to compare some metal group with Bob Dylan? (It's tough to compare him with singer-songwriters from any genre) Maybe some of them were feeling the same emotions, anybody can feel angry. An artist though is the one who can best translate those emotions to a song, canvass, etc. I've heard plenty of metal, and most of the time it is a lot of noise with unintelligible "singing" (yelling), and flimsy lyrics.

You say counterexamples abound, let's have them. I am open to all types of music, and my library reflects this. But I know what I like and don't like. Most metal and rap, I don't like.

1 Reply

@Pangloss,

Hello Pangloss,

You said:

Quote:

This is an interesting discussion

I think it is too. Theres something raw about the topic of music and emotions.

Anyways, you said:

Quote:

When it comes to rebellious music, I think you have to remember where it really gained its strength: the 1960s.

The issue of rebellious music can be termed in a opposite stance of feeling regarding issues of humanity, ranging from society in general to individuals, and of course self awareness. This is my meaning of the term, I hope we can agree basically what rebellious music is.

As far as the label in general, on its varying degrees, i would make the point it is a natural outlet, merely expressed in entertainment (music). One can argue that it has its limits before it becomes destructive in its use and cause. This is indeed for individuals to decipher for themselves, Through different tastes and flavors if you will.

Quote:

The 60s were fueled by a youth group that felt oppressed by that "Leave it to Beaver" 50s family that wants to stick everyone into a mold and reject individuality...it was fueled by a youth group that felt confused, saddened, hopeless at times when they saw their friends coming home from Vietnam in body bags. The war and the restrictive, idealized 50s household and society were probably the catalysts for an outright rejection of this establishment, and rebellious music and drug use went along with that.

The music of the 1960s went on to produce later bands like Led Zeppelin, which is greatly responsible for influencing more modern groups like Metallica and heavy metal in general. It all comes from the same idea of youth rebellion...I think the general theme behind this rebellion is about the same as it was back in the 60s.

Indeed the Beatles were the first rebels in music to take the world by storm. Elvis could be classified here to but in a different tone and picture. Anyways Along comes the next great bands, Zeppelin, Floyd, The Doors, The Who, etc... Indeed they were creative innovators in expressing the youth movements concerns.

Quote:

With that said, I also think this particular type of "music" is more like noise, as is most rap and other heavy metal that I have heard, "punk rock", etc. Sounds like a bunch of kids who are depressed/angry and just hit "record" and start screaming about how bad off they have it, when they should instead probably take some time to reflect on their lives in comparison to the lives of many others in this world, and be thankful instead of angry.

oh boy. There is so much to consider in the shaping of a persons outlook and morals/ethics. Well instead of labeling the reasons, i instead talk about what society might not like about these individuals views. They are BOLD. I feel that in a forum of this type, people here are down to earth and able to recognize problems that exist in are world. To you, i totally understand that this music serves little purpose in your knowledge or spiritual understanding. So i wonder how this music is meant to be heard. Believe me when i say that every musician has a message. Even the money hungry ones. Where that message relates to you is where the separation begins. For example, a rap artist who talks about killing other people in order to survive or make means, is giving you the opportunity to here where a person like that is coming from. Does it bother you? i should hope not, because in a day and age where so few have the will or means to speak to the public and government, these artists are story tellers in every sense of the word. Does it justify there reality and actions? Of course not. Does that mean you should not engage in their pain or dysfunction? That would be in-human.

So Who are these rebels yelling at? Everyone? No one? The Rich? The Poor? I think anyone willing to listen and help the people who cant help themselves. Whether you think they deserve it, is also where I think you lay your judgments.

"ooh it really makes me wonder"

Quote:

The main thing I don't like about rap or metal, is not necessarily the overall sound, but the underlying message. The message of this "music" seems to be, in many respects, rage. It is angry, condemning, negative, even hateful. This, to me, does not qualify as "music"; music does reflect emotion, and anger is a valid emotion. But humans do not thrive on one single emotion, and when your entire album is one of rage and condemnation, it strikes me as being sub-human; you are not presenting the human psyche accurately, you are peddling this "rage" in order to sell records, because these pissed-off disenfranchised youth demand it.

Is it human to be angry? music invokes thought and feelings. If you feel some music goes to far this way or that, Then it has succeeded in giving a realistic view of our world. People are angry, People are happy, and there is so much in between the lines.

When an album contains all material pertaining to peaceful interaction and communication, is that presenting the human psyche accurately? Nope, we are a bundle of emotions and fears. And like a broken recored, I'll say again that, Music is a artistic representation. I fear the type of preaching against the idea of music that represents one side fully, but the wrong side? What are you afraid of?

Quote:

In other words, they are not using music for genuine artistic expression.

Really??

Quote:

They are using it to make money. And this is the difference between a true musician, and a self-interested, greedy hack.

That sounded angry. You better tone that down mister. Laughing

1 Reply

@Joe,

Joe;39318 wrote:

Believe me when i say that every musician has a message. Even the money hungry ones. Where that message relates to you is where the separation begins. For example, a rap artist who talks about killing other people in order to survive or make means, is giving you the opportunity to here where a person like that is coming from. Does it bother you? i should hope not, because in a day and age where so few have the will or means to speak to the public and government, these artists are story tellers in every sense of the word. Does it justify there reality and actions? Of course not. Does that mean you should not engage in their pain or dysfunction? That would be in-human.

Yep, they all have messages, but some of these messages are not worth hearing or glorifying. A rap artist talking about killing people does bother me. Why? Because this message is being glorified by today's pop culture, and it influences and helps to perpetuate the cycle of gang violence that we see in the youth. These rap stars are terrible role models for kids. I will not engage in their pain/dysfunction, because I'd rather not waste the time and money to purchase a CD that just glorifies violence, drug use, and mistreatment of women. Note that I am talking here about the "rap artist who talks about killing" and his gangster-rap ilk. There are some rappers (not mainstream) who I like, and who use very poetic lyrics, and they convey their message of anger and frustration in a positive way. And this message does not dominate all of their works...

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Is it human to be angry? music invokes thought and feelings. If you feel some music goes to far this way or that, Then it has succeeded in giving a realistic view of our world. People are angry, People are happy, and there is so much in between the lines.

When an album contains all material pertaining to peaceful interaction and communication, is that presenting the human psyche accurately? Nope, we are a bundle of emotions and fears. And like a broken recored, I'll say again that, Music is a artistic representation. I fear the type of preaching against the idea of music that represents one side fully, but the wrong side? What are you afraid of?

Of course it's human to be angry. I said as much in two earlier posts, and it's natural for artists to express anger and dissatisfaction, and this is good. I do not want to hear music that is "all material pertaining to peaceful interaction", that would be just as unrealistic as the rap and heavy metal I speak of which all pertains to anger and contempt.

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That sounded angry. You better tone that down mister.

I'm not angry...I just turn off the radio when this junk is playing, to avoid the headache. At the very least, if you are creating "music" with lyrics, the lyrics should actually be intelligible-- lyrics that we can actually understand in this "music" might help to relay that very important "message" you are talking about. :sarcastic:

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@Pangloss,

Pangloss;39306 wrote:

I would like you to show me one metal song that can really be compared to Dylan's "Masters of War". Bob may not have the greatest voice, but I can understand his words when I listen to the song.

Bob Dylan is my favorite of all singers/songwriters, and I think his ability to express himself dwarfs nearly every other songwriter in history.

That said, take the verse:

"And I hope that you die
And your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead"

And tell me that there isn't anger and rage -- perhaps even excessively -- in that verse.

My metal days are behind me, but nearly every song by Megadeth is political, I'd say half of the ones by Metallica are political (and many of the rest make reference to literature), and even <gasp> Slayer is mostly political.

So is it rage for the sake of rage? Or might it actually be anger as an appropriate part of political expression?

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You really want to compare some metal group with Bob Dylan?

Not at all. I just want you to realize that anger, rage, and even violence are hardly unique to metal and rap. And that even if you think metal is vapid, its main utility is as a political type of expression.

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I've heard plenty of metal, and most of the time it is a lot of noise with unintelligible "singing" (yelling), and flimsy lyrics.

Some of it is bad, and the "extreme" metal (like death metal) is almost unlistenable. But there is crap in every era. For every Dylan and every Beatles you had a hundred knockoffs of Peter, Paul, and Mary. And of the best heavy metal groups (whether you like them or not), there is a lot of garbage out there too.

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You say counterexamples abound, let's have them.

Let's go through Metallica's first four albums and identify songs that actually have a topic other than satan, drugs, and violence:

"Hit the Lights" -- about concerts
"The Four Horsemen" -- from Revelations
"Motorbreath" -- about rock touring
"(Anesthesia) Pulling Teeth" -- instrumental
"Whiplash" -- about concerts
"For Whom the Bell Tolls" -- about the Hemingway novel (or evokes it, at least)
"Fade to Black" -- about depression and loss
"Creeping Death" -- about the 10 plagues from Exodus
"The Call of Ktulu" -- instrumental song about an HP Lovecraft story
"Master of Puppets" -- an ANTI-drug song
"The Thing that Should not Be" -- from an HP Lovecraft story
"Welcome Home (Sanitarium)" -- about mental illness and isolation
"Disposable Heroes" -- an anti-war song
"Orion" -- an instrumental song, evoking space
"Blackened" -- an anti-nuclear war song
"And Justice for All" -- about a corrupt legal system
"Eye of the Beholder" -- about censorship
"One" -- about a wounded war veteran
"To Live is to Die" -- an instrumental homage to their bassist who had died in a bus accident

Yes, these all have "negative" themes. But they're not expressing RAGE or ANGER, and in fact few of the ones I've ommitted from this list do either.

Some thrash metal bands, like Anthrax, aren't even predominantly negative in their content. They mainly have irony and humor.

It's just hard to generalize. If I took an uninitiated person and played him "Stuck Inside of Mobile with the Memphis Blues" and "Desolation Row", he'd think that Dylan was nothing but hallucinogenic nonsense. You and I both know that those are two of his greatest songs, and it takes some concentration to really understand them, but this is because he challenges us.

By the same token, you cannot know how deep heavy metal and rap CAN be if the sound is what dissuades you from delving deeper. That's fine, but be honest with yourself -- it's the sound that's making you generalize about the content.

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Metallica - All Nightmare Long

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