pagans, from a pagan perspective.

I cant see the point in making one place the focus of attention. I can remember walking around the henge at salibury and the grafity and neglect was terrible,do you think thousands of proposed new age believers will value it anymore. Its not just for us, its for everyone who in thousands of years who might want to marvel at its significance.

So what exactly is the basis of paganism?
All religions have their sacred places.
All religions have their rituals or practices?
Do you regard paganism as a religion?
How does it relate to pantheism? Nature as god.

For me it has never been the case that i would say i am a pagan but if i try to give you a definition of my feelings, then paganism would describe me best. I would never dare say god exists, pantheists appear to carry all types of baggage ,so im not a pantheist. The force of nature , yes or the spirit of nature, many claim it as a religion but not me. Its the contemplation of nature, inspired by certain holy places.

xris

i don't seek to make one place the focus of attention. I use it as a place of spiritual practice amongst other places........ famous, obscure, private and public. The ancestral landscape around avebury, stonehenge and other sacred sites is huge and extends way beyond the boundaries of henges and stone circles. They can be magical places to be in as a pagan.

With regard to stopping graffiti and neglect i don't want to leave that entirely to the state beaurocracy, which preserves them only as historical artefacts and places of tourism. It is misplaced anger against the state beaurocracy that causes vandalism as much as anything else. There will always be those of the chav element in all situations, but "proposed new age believers"??

And as for pagans occasionally gathering in numbers ..... well why not and why not an amazing ancient pagan site?

I wont disagree with you, I suppose they dont restrict the numbers that attend st Paul's or refuse them entry to any christian sites of worship. Sorry appears my word of necessity today, i was just concerned these special places should be maintained for future generations. I wish they could take those damned roads away and give it back its landscape.

Would you like it to be included as a permanent place of worship? The argument might be that Pagans don't preserve or cherish the smaller sites, why should they make demands on the spectacular ones. I have many in my area but they are never treated special by any pagans i know. Lay your claims on them first and you might get recognised.

xris

yeh i would like to see these sites as places of living ritual. With regards to raising consciousness to other pagan sites, and nature generally then we have to start somewhere. All around us. That includes as you say the churches that were deliberately placed upon them. There just aren't enough pagans to go round! lol ..... and as you yourself point out, we shouldn't underestimate the prejudice and dogma against us that is still lingering. Due to the language and demonisation by past christians in a country that is still occasionally labeled as 'christian' by the state. Christian in an increasingly beaurocratic 'heritage' sense......... not spiritual.

It is the cold grey beaurocracy of our lives that i see spiritual people challenging and taking on. Its not easy in a world where TV will replace anything that is real and 'out there'. look at all the supernatural stuff that the media is pumping out as a substitute. CGI ghouls and vampires on the one hand ....... 'reality' pyschic tv on the other. Is it any wonder that people have lost touch and respect for their landscape and wildlife in the sacred sense?

I was at waylands smithy a few weeks ago and some twerp had chalked symbols all over the stones. I can well believe that whoever did it thought they were doing something 'occult' or whatever word they use. Probably TV generation kids had some kind of ritual in the vein of playing with a ouija board. I don't know. I spent an hour cleaning it off. Maybe one day someone will be doing as i did and someone like the others will ask why ..... and awareness grows.

As Yogi Berra might say it, "Hey! I resemble that remark!"

I identify myself as a pagan mystic (and shaman), and much of my philosophical focus regards what I think of as a pagan view of reality. Hence, all that stuff about everything being a conscious being that you may have read elsewhere.

Okay, maybe I do make more of paganism than needs be. I agree with you that the heart of it is simply the celebration of nature and life, more epicurean delight and wonder than stoic mystery and meditation.

But I also think that pagans should be able to present a better defense of their views than many are able to do. I have heard some really lame religion and philosophy from pagans who responded to questions about their paganism. :perplexed: It contributes to the view of paganism as some new age fantasy role playing game. Especially with all our talk about magick and secret powers that confuse paganism and wicca with gothics and vampires. :eek:

Samm

Spot on Pagan. Years ago when I used to drive a cab, I picked up a small boy for (I presumed a custodial visit) to the separated spouse. It was Christmas Eve (here in Australia, Christas eve is in the middle of summer). The kid suddenly piped up and said 'Hey Superman's coming tonight!' I said 'Don't you mean Santa Claus?'. And he said, "No, no, mummy and daddy don't believe in Santa Claus. Superman's coming. He is going to bring presents...

G.K. Chesterton said once, somewhere, 'take away people's beliefs, and they will belief anything.' I see a lot of that nowadays. As you say, a lot of the fascination with horror, the supernatural, vampires, the Da Vinci Code, all kinds of things, are sublimated spirituality. Actual spirituality is virtually taboo, so it comes out in all of these weird subterranean expressions, mainly in forms that are disguised or obscured.

See The Society of the Spectacle, by Guy Debord.

hi samm

yeh i have noticed that role playing games are quite common amongst pagans (and affiliates ) that i know. Especially guys. I kind of puzzled over this for a while and then thought "hey whatever" because at least they were getting out and about and away from the tv. And its creative and imaginative and so on. Many take up martial arts with it, which is a lot more than i do re physical fitness.

I am just starting out on exploring shamanism as a practice. (Well exploring a great deal as it happens across the wide scope of paganism generally.) The reason is that i have found myself being very possibly at the front end of ritual in the near future because somehow or other i have been handed down one such role. The wearing of masks and ceremonial robes generally can of course have an intense effect both personally and in open circle. So the role playing thing i now see as a kind of echoe and i don't want to prejudge it. But personally it feels uneasy as a recreational/imaginative exercise on the one hand, and then a shamanic/ritual role on the other.

Nature and this consciousness as an enchanted realm. We shouldn't forget to play .... because without play were are not celebrating. And i guess its similar re drugs and shamanism too.

Anyways, this samhain i am off to a remote glen in scotland for a week with three friends and two modern teepees. It will be a definite contrast to the past few years with the local crew at avebury ..... and much colder! How are the rest of you observing and celebrating the sabbat?

Hello, Pagan! This quick reply comes about ten days since your post. I'm sure that my wife and I will celebrate Samhain at home, just the two of us. We will remember our dead loved one's (family and friends) as usual. By the time you reach retirement age, as we have, that list of lost loved ones gets pretty long. :-) We will reminisce about old times with them and celebrate their cherished memories that so enrich the treasury of our lives. We will invite their blessings on us in the year ahead, beginning this Yule, and we will give them our blessings, both for those who will abide here for a while longer and for those who must let go the past and move on.

We don't build bonfires around our old country house that will not survive us. But we will light a few candles that night, make a ritual circle perhaps and sing a song or two with our gods and goddesses (the Moon for me, the Christ for my wife, and all the other embodiments of the divine in our world). We will drink in that special night air that autumn breathes, bathe ourselves in the waning moonlight on a bed of fallen leaves, hay, cattails, and old brown cornhusks, sharing homemade bread and wine as we talk into the night about such nights that have been before and such as may yet come to us.

Oh, I'm not so sure we'll find it in our old diabetic bodies to get all of this done, but we will hopefully capture the essential spirit of the time.

Bright blessings to you and yours on your escapade to Scotland for the holy days of this high Sabbat! Blessings in fact to all our pagan comrades, our sisters and brothers of the spirit, our waterkin gathered here at this site. May you all have a memorable Samhain.

Samm

blessings to you and yours samm

samhain in the wilds of scotland was magical. The spirits were dancing all around and the four of us shared a very special time and place. Wet of course, but on samhain eve the clouds cleared and the moonlight glittered on the river, where we camped on the grassy bank. Beautiful. A lovely jet black whirlpool to help pass on my auntie who recently left this realm. We will be having our feast of the dead at darkmoon in a week or so.

To all our loved ones who have passed over this year. "Hail and fare well"