pagans, from a pagan perspective.

I think naming only suits for organizational and analytic purposes. But beyond that it does not matter.

I have always been slightly confused on creation and destruction. The number 1 thing physicists use to describe nature is the conservation of energy (which is coupled to mass). And from observation things are neither created nor destroyed just transformed and it is all a part of nature. Nature seems to be as is, whether we think we have it understood or not. As Nietzsche roughly said, we can convince ourselves what nature should be, but nature doesn't obey.

The fight against dogmatic faiths depends how your knowledge is constructed, whether if its a collection truths or if it is a way of life as well. If I assume its both, then it shall tell you your way of life, and whether to fight the dogmatists or not. Now if that knowledge isn't clear and one is confused then one must say they simply do not know, and re-evaluate the knowledge one has.

---------- Post added 10-03-2009 at 01:38 PM ----------

Oh and something random! I noticed you are from Cornwall. So in the U.S. we have Finnish Pasties, but when I went to England, I tried Cornish pasties and they are the best! I probably could have them every night for dinner lol.

Thanks for your reply...I am content with what i dont know as much as i am with what i do. My nature is to oppose all damaging dogma, it is my sworn enemy, it has always opposed pagan values. Do as you wish as long it harms no one but these dogmatic driven faiths are not content with condemning the proposed sinner they impose unreasonable demands on their brain washed followers.

Sorry i did not mention the oggy, it can have great value, home produced, but generally it can be put to good use as a door stop.

lol! This is where I had my pasties from when I was there The West Cornwall Pasty Company

I know them, i think warrens bakery make theirs. We have done business with them very adventurous company. Oggies OK but nothing like home made.

I see, I notice they seem to add a bit of like a creamy sauce or something. As the ones here in the US tend to be a bit dryer on the inside. Do you know what they add to make it a bit more creamy on the inside?

I will try and get a decent recipe from an expert, its all down to personal taste.

Hooray! Lets celebrate the good times, come-on! YouTube - Kool & The Gang - Celebration

The one I liked they labeled as the traditional kind. But I swear it had to have some sort of sauce it in it. It wasn't just meat, potatoes, and swede, there is some secret ingredient!

A dollop of butter, a drop of English mustard, a smidgen of gravy but no sauce. I think you know the recipe but i prefer the meat cooked in flour and butter before its placed in the oggy. Plenty of black pepper for me, and maybe a little carrot. Ive just listened to that fantastic song i think its my karaoke for Thursday, ye.

I see, thanks for the extra ingredients! I think that is what it is missing in Finnish ones in america.

Got from pagans to pastry pretty quickly:-) My take is that a 'pagan' is, according to tradition, the 'spiritually unenlightened'. Of course this is a prejudical term in many respects, because 'one man's sage is another man's pagan', but in Western cilvilization, pagan religions included (for example) the Norse Gods, the Germanic Gods, and the village deities of the ancient world of whom Yahweh always took a very dim view. As the European conquest of the world reached its peak, everyone outside Europe was designated pagan, and I am sure for some traditionalists, this designation still holds good.

In the Catholic heirarchy, pagans invariably were consigned to the flames, with the possible exception of the 'virtuous pagans', which included Socrates and Virgil. These were considered never to have had the opportunity to accept Christ but who were felt to be virtuous. Dante put them in the first circle of Hell; the best place in the worst location, I suppose you could say.

In recent times paganism is often associated with The Lord of the Rings and other myths depicted in popular culture; even Star Wars can be interpreted as a pagan myth. I am always rather amused by popular paganism which is loosely associated with goths, astrological symbols and solemn re-creations at Stonehenge (accompanied by press photographers and food vendors....)

For me its more about the spirit of nature and the landscape. You see many common tokens in other old faiths. If you are aware of the significance of certain plants and ideas of worship, you will see them mirrored in other ancient faiths ,separated by thousands of miles. It venerates nature and tries to be in sympathy with it. It can be displayed in ritual or the naming of spirits that inhabit nature. Don't be confused by the so called mystics that attempt to make it more than it is.

Halloween is a pagan holiday... but then, some say all the big Holidays are... and there tends to be food and trees involved

Except for St. Patrick's Day. Just green beer.

Trees the bringer of life to our planet, where the spirits of our ancestors dwell. The oak groves where the holly and the ivy give clues to the eternal nature of nature. Where we give thanks to the spirit of the forests. They overlook still the pagan villages of Persia and bear witness to pagan roots in English church yards. See an ancient tree and you see a pagan sight of worship, go there feel its presence and prey to your ancestors, they will appear to you.

I dare you to approach a yew in an English church yard and not feel its power, they have survived thousands of years of christian enclosure, try cutting its branch and not fear its wrath. O dear my secret is out.

Did you cut a yew branch?

I lived once where there was a circle of beech trees near a creek. The bark is smooth, silver, and muscular looking... and all winter long, the yellow leaves stay on the limbs above... looking like gold in the sun. It was a cathedral.

When I see an old fallen tree in the woods, I always call it "old man." A fallen tree makes its own church in the woods in the spring because the stubby flowering trees grow in the sunny space and take their opportunity to make extravagant display of white and dark pink.

I once knew a forester who would walk through the park giving the Latin names of all the plants. It seemed incomprehensible to me that an old walnut was stamped with a Latin name... like walking around seeing people and saying: Homo Sapiens.

The yew was used to make long bows and the christian story is they are kept in churchyards to protect them, but the truth is the churches where built on old pagan holy grounds, the yew was a sacred tree to the pagans. You often see the old standing stones of pagan times built in to churches as well. The christians incorporated all the pagan sites and festivals to appease the converts. One day our spirits will avenge these intrusions.

hi xris

i think the key thing is whether we are fighting for freedom of spiritual practice. At Avebury there is a kind of fight for our rights, but no bloodshed yet. Stonehenge is more of a problem. Its a tricky one because these sites are seen now as 'world heritage', whatever that means, and should thus be 'protected'. It isn't dogma though. Its beaurocracy.

As pagans we recognise nature to be enchanted .... the beaurocracy sees nothing in that light. It is a difficult thing to take on because it is couched in the likes of freedom of access, conservation, health and safety, historical artefact and entrance fees. Such concepts and practice are diffuse. They are regulatory yet for the benefit of all. The exact opposite of dogma ...... cold grey non commitment to any passionate belief.

When we practice ritual we reveal what is possible. If the people watching see quaint and charming video shots that add to the enjoyment of their day out then we cannot exert change and recognition. Ironically it is the occassional anger of annoyed locals that gives us something to work on. A platform to speak directly. That and when the likes of english heritage or the national trust and other land owners call in the police to get us removed.

Nature like everything else is beaurocracised. Ownership, access, tv nature programmes, preservation and so on. The machine and the language that it speaks. Cold and organised.

Its just that many other religions sit much more easily with beaurocracy because they themselves are highly organised and their beliefs are written down in holy texts that are central to their spiritual practice. God and allahs order and word.

...... pagans do not need texts or organised institution to express their enchanted vision and feeling for this realm. Nor do they need those things to protect paganism itself either. Spontaneity and being in nature is enough to recreate our spiritual path.

It still has to be recognised that christianity destroyed the significance of many holy sites. Holy wells ,oak groves etc , but it still leaves many places we can sit in quite contemplation without ritual. This need to gather in large numbers around certain megalithic monuments, amuses me. Just go to the nearest moor or hidden grove and you will find plenty to stir your natural feelings of nature and ancestors.

why does it amuse you that people gather around megalithic sites the significance of which hasn't been destroyed by christianity, yet sites that have suffered such destruction bothers you?

...... but i agree with regard to nature generally. We can feel and recreate.