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Is Entropy dead?

 
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Wed 14 Jan, 2009 11:30 pm
@Bracewell,
Holiday

Quote:
Interesting... any thoughts as to why; any theories, any ideas?


Most we know about black holes are still theoretical , but we know that black holes do exist and the effect of these have been picked up be space telescope Hubble


I will think about it and come back soon?
Bracewell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2009 04:52 pm
@Alan McDougall,
When I suggested a recycling universe I didn't mean big bang to big bang. The idea I have in mind involves all the energy that is being pumped out by stars. Although the present crop of stars will eventually fail the energy they produced should surely not be lost. Now suppose there is an unknown process where this energy becomes the basis for the formation of hydrogen gas which returns to start the whole process of star formation again.
Well, you asked for ideas.
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Thu 15 Jan, 2009 11:02 pm
@Bracewell,
I have an idea. But I am wondering, what nuclear properties does antimatter exhibit?

Has it already been figured out why we have annihilations or matter with antimatter?
0 Replies
 
validity
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 04:01 pm
@Bracewell,
Bracewell wrote:
Validity - if the boundary of the universe is moving faster than the radiation then is the radiation in effect inside a closed system?


It would seem that nothing could then be getting out of the system. If something was getting in, then the conservation laws would not hold.

Bracewell wrote:
The argument seems to get a bit blurred if the true conditions are not really known. When the rules of Entropy were formulated these weird conditions could not have been envisaged.


When we learn of these so called true conditions, will an opened refrigerator act as an airconditioner?
Holiday20310401
 
  1  
Reply Sat 17 Jan, 2009 08:20 pm
@validity,
Well obviously one of them must not be moving then?

Why not stretching?
Bracewell
 
  1  
Reply Sun 18 Jan, 2009 05:39 pm
@Holiday20310401,
You might find this a good read.

Kantian (or Hippy ) Physics 2
0 Replies
 
validity
 
  1  
Reply Wed 21 Jan, 2009 03:27 am
@Holiday20310401,
Holiday20310401 wrote:
Well obviously one of them must not be moving then?


From whose point of view?

Holiday20310401 wrote:
Why not stretching?


I think that stretching is a better term as it best describes what occurs in theory and appears to occur in observations.
0 Replies
 
Bracewell
 
  1  
Reply Mon 5 Apr, 2010 06:09 pm
@Bracewell,
It seems we know about galaxies that are 13.5 light years distant, which if we take the best possible rate for the transmission of information then it makes the big bang not less than 13.5 billion years old. So, can we assume that the cosmos is contained in a volume with a diameter of 27 billion light years? Well, maybe. However, if it is assumed that in that far away galaxy there is a telescope looking at us then is it reasonable to expect that the view thru that telescope would be the same as our view? And again, if we turned our telescope to look in the opposite direction might we not possibly see another similar situation? Hopefully, you are now ahead of me and you can see there is a potential at each distant telescope to increase the diameter of the cosmos by an infinite amount but in jumps of 13.5 billion light years. Now, is that not an awful lot of potential volume to be considered as closed?

The above was my post on this thread (13th) but since then I've had a further blunderment in that I can think of another another possiblity.

Lets say that our telescope is position A and primitive galaxies can be seen at an extreme distance at position B. Our telescope is then turned to look in the opposite direction and again primitive galaxies are observed at an extreme position C.
So, what can reasonably be assumed -

Does the telescope at B have the same view of A as A has of B?
Similarly, does the telescope at C have the same view of A as A has of C?
Now crucially. does B have the same view of C as A has of B and C, and does C have the same view of B as A has of B and C?
The quick answer is to say no, because the distance is doubled and the universe is not old enough for the light to have travelled that far. This is a real time, now question that cannot involve inflation.

I think it is reasonable to assume that the views at B and C would be no different to the view at A, which would mean that light would have to travel at a much faster speed but that would be OK because time would stretch to allow it.
Ok, so playing with this, then in order for the unverse to look the same in every direction and from every view point there must be conditions where time virtually slows to a stop to allow light to travel from every view point. The boundry of the universe would then be dependent on the rate of time.

I hope you are now suitably boggled because I am.
0 Replies
 
pagan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 23 Apr, 2010 09:01 pm
@StupidBoy phil,
StupidBoy;39995 wrote:
I would agree that it's an awful lot of potential volume, but that does not mean that it is infinite. Given a finite space, a system must be closed at some point. It might not be at a point that we can easily conceive, but without a nullspace randomly generating energy/matter, the system is closed. The ocean is an awfully big place to a single amoeba floating around; it is so vast as to seem infinite, but it's not. I suggest that we're dealing with a finite space because a finite amount of matter would seem to suggest a finite space, although it's true that it would not prove it.

In terms of entropy, I don't see how it's dead. We still see the effects in a localized manner; if not to perfection (due to changes outside the given system affecting the system) then enough to see the truth of it. My basic thought runs like this:

Regardless of entropy tending to increase in systems, we are aware that there is no such thing as a perfect engine. Some energy is also lost to heat. Eventually, as long as there is motion, all energy will have been lost to heat. There are only two ways this scenario can be avoided.

One, an input of energy from an outside source. The difficulty with this scenario is that the heat is still there. Our heat never dissipates(as one thing gets hotter, another, necessarily, gets colder). Since Einsteinian physics relies on the idea that energy is never created or destroyed, it simply changes form, this solution would also invalidate what seems to be a very workable set of physics.

Two, we reverse the general theory of relativity. If E=MC2[I have no idea how to get superscript, my apologies] then necessarily M=E/C2. If you can turn matter into it's correspondant energy, then it should be possible, if the laws of mathematics are to be believed, to turn energy into matter. If, under certain circumstances, this useless heat can be transformed into matter, we've solved our problem. Entropy can exist and at the same time not be relevant in the grand scheme of things.

Of course, I'm not nearly as up to date on a lot of astronomy and physics as I ought to be, I'm just chipping my 2 cents in.


yeh conceptually at the moment it does appear odd to let energy appear from nothing without keeping the conservation law. But in QM of course, plus and minus particles can pop into existence from 'nothing' and if one goes one way the other remains seperate and suddenly apparent from nowhere. Depending upon the boundary of the system, energy can appear or disappear.

If closed means including the creation of both particles, (eg the extra dimension from whence they came), then your closed system system argument holds .... and entropy reigns if the current closed system model is correct. However, in multi universe theory there are conceptually the possibilities of universes where entropy increases. Thus decreasing entropy could be local to a particular universe.

Moreover, because of QM, we can witness increases in entropy over short periods of time on the nano level. The boundary thus has to include time as well as space. Our early small universe may have included times of increasing entropy..... even if it is the only one.

But i agree that entropy is relevant nonetheless.
0 Replies
 
HexHammer
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 06:46 am
@Aedes,
Aedes;36502 wrote:
Not necessarily -- there is some evidence that matter is irretrievably lost in black holes.

But that's besides the point. Entropy has zilch to do with "the syntax of infinity". It has to do with finite, closed systems that in themselves are at equilibirum.

Bracewell, the article about entropy is in Scientific American from last month.
Uhmm ..Hawkin's radiation? Pulsars? Most black holes end up exploading, or galaxies can collide at destroy the black hole in collisions.

..so, I can't agree.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 May, 2010 11:27 pm
@Bracewell,
Entropy can flow only if time flows with it, and time can only move in a state of high entropy to a lower state
0 Replies
 
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 02:55 am
@Bracewell,
No. Entropy is not dead. Entropy IS death.
Bracewell
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 06:40 pm
@QuinticNon,
Quin - what you write is correct but it seems strange that all energy comes from nothing then returns to nothing. I have to ask: at what point in the process does the conservation of energy apply, also, if energy comes from nothing then why is it sensible to say that it dissipates to nothing? Entropy seems to work as a rule but one way as long as the big bang is ignored.
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Thu 27 May, 2010 11:57 pm
@Bracewell,
Bracewell;169787 wrote:
...it seems strange that all energy comes from nothing then returns to nothing.


I don't know of any science that teaches that. The basic tenet of science is that energy cannot be created or destroyed. It can only be changed or re-purposed.

Bracewell;169787 wrote:
...at what point in the process does the conservation of energy apply...


Technically, conservation of energy only applies to a specific purpose of intent by a sentient being. Everything else is simple chaotic energy.

Humans harness that energy and re-purpose it for their own specific desires.

Bracewell;169787 wrote:
...if energy comes from nothing then why is it sensible to say that it dissipates to nothing?


I don't know of any science that teaches that.

Bracewell;169787 wrote:
Entropy seems to work as a rule...


Entropy is the exact opposite of "rule". Entropy doesn't "work". It's just a measurement to detect inefficiency and decay.

Bracewell;169787 wrote:
...as long as the big bang is ignored.


Or as long as the big bang is misunderstood.
0 Replies
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 03:15 am
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;169477 wrote:
No. Entropy is not dead. Entropy IS death.


Entropy is not only the prime case of death , it also the reason why we can live breath and sustain health
QuinticNon
 
  1  
Reply Fri 28 May, 2010 12:08 pm
@Alan McDougall,
Alan McDougall;169859 wrote:
...the reason why...


...Please explain...
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Sat 29 May, 2010 10:00 pm
@QuinticNon,
QuinticNon;170045 wrote:
...Please explain...


You need enough low entropy for it to flow toward high entropy,for energy to flow and be able to activate your mortal body. Entropy and time are closely intertwined, one cannot exist without the other
0 Replies
 
 

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