Miracles

The thing I'm concerned with is attaching the stigma "God-given, good implication" to the word.

If you want to define said word along the lines of an anomaly, I'm more inclined to support you.

Whats a miracle? an observed demand from the faithful and answered by their god ? could someone please explain what the debate is about..

What I see going on here, is that a Miracle is an event that causes interest from humans based on personal perception and logic.

What I think going on in this thread is whether or not these events are magnified by our own reasons or they stand out because they justify a intelligence behind them, separate from our own.

God. It seems that people are using miracles to try and prove god exists. In a subtle way. But its there.

It begs the question is there or has there been a miracle to be discussed?..even if there has been one is it a showy thing that is more like a side show to the main event?

No matter what it is, A "miracle", is a concept.

Is that like concept car..plenty of promises but never materialises..

Perhaps the notion/word 'miracle' evolved in a science/critical-thought 'lean' (and superstition/mythology rich) atmosphere. A 'Bic' lighter in action would certainly have qualified as a miracle at a particular place and time, to a particular 'world-view'.
Perhaps, in our critical thought/science 'rich' atmosphere of today, it's time to relegate the obsolete notion of 'miracles' to the dustbins of a superstitious and ignorant history?
There will be quite a pile of obsolete words, obsolete notions, to keep it company...

I reiterate what you just said in a multitude of my posts. It really astounds me why people still attach themselves to these simple-minded notions. I'd throw all of those obsolete notions in the proverbial wastebasket if possible, but alas, I do not have the power.

As another poster on this forum once said, "Knowledge is like a sculpture in progress, not a garbage heap; shavings must fall in order to advance.

While I agree with your leveling of these notions, Id hafe to say that it would be out of personal perception to withdraw these ideas from the world. You cannot remove and idea. If your so inclined, it is only your conflict applied. People who use these words have a tendency to lean toward Faith.

I understand the stance against it, but to be so bold as to try and remove a persons faith..... well I think that would be just a step backwards.

As another poster on this forum once said, "Knowledge is like a sculpture in progress, not a garbage heap; shavings must fall in order to advance.

Interesting inversely proportional direct relationship between the 'scrap heap' and the 'sculpture'. Can they be truly seperate? Disconnected? One cannot 'be' unless (and as) the 'other' One 'is', also!
I don't think that stuff can be truly discarded without getting rid of baby also, but, perhaps, a 'new' understanding, a new definition and context...

"A word is not a crystal, transparent and unchanged; it is the skin of a living thought and may vary greatly in color and content according to the circumstances and time in which it is used." -Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.

well thats the interesting thing about a miracle. It is very material. Something happens and it is appreciated by someone. what we call this appreciation is unimportant. It is why we call this action, a title that separates its meaning. What meaning can justify if something is real? its very unprovable in my view. it falls to spirituality.

I feel like Freud now.

Hi Zetherin

It seems to me that critical thinking is what leads to faith, unless, that is, one is happy to believe just about anything. And if a doctrine is ancient and survives it is probably because there is some truth in it. Indeed, most of those ancient doctrines you disparage advocate contemplation just as you do. Mohammed goes so far as to say that an hour's contemplation is worth a year's worship. I presume you'd go along with him on this.

I believe that critical thinking will lead us to conclude that there is more sense in many ancient doctrines than in many modern ones. At any rate, this is true in my case, and I predict that it will also be true in yours.

First, assuming any text, regardless of it's affiliation, is valid or useful because of it's age is a true fallacy. Let us stop applying profound meaning to texts just because they are from notable prophets, preachers, or "God"(s). Sure, I may be able to find truth in many of the ancient texts, but I could also find some truth in Humpty Dumpty. So what?

Consistent critical thinking does not lead to faith - it leads to further thought.

The minute you become stagnant, you have failed to consider something. People choose to become stagnant for comfort; frankly, it's very difficult to live in consistent critical thought - you are castrated from society, and have a high probability of dying alone in a log cabin like Nietzche.

In terms of science, I completely disagree there is more 'sense' in ancient texts.

I quite agree. By the same token, let's stop assuming that a text is not valid, useful or profound just because it's ancient. It's age is immaterial.


This is not the case. Critical thinking gives us faith in scientific theories for a start. In my case it gives me faith in the doctrine of mysticism. Indeed, I can hardly see any purpose to critical thinking unless we have some faith in our conclusions.


You're assuming that critical thinking is always inconclusive. I do not believe this, and it is not my experience. Poor critical thinking is the problem, not critical thinking per se.


Yes, I realise this. But I don't think I suggested that there is always more sense in ancient texts. That would be a daft idea.

I'd be quite happy to defend my religious views on strictly philosophical grounds anytime you want to try to knock them down, but maybe in a new thread.

The shavings symbolize those ideas and notions that our species has simply little use for any longer, the new understanding is achieved with every thrust of the carver.

And I enjoy the Oliver quote. Thank you.

On the other hand, I have been an artist/ blacksmith for many decades, and I have taken metalic 'scraps', the 'waste pile of othewrs' and transformed them into 'other' (more useful) things! Transformation!!