The physical correlates of consciousness.

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... it has been argued convincingly that the physical correlates of cognition are not solely neural, but span a dynamic system of brain, body, and world ... however, the cognitive scientists and philosophers who support such a view do not necessarily agree as to whether or not this translates to the physical correlates of consciousness also being a nexus of brain, body, and world ... for example, Clark might argue that consciousness resides entirely within the brain, whereas Rockwell would almost certainly object.

One of the simpler arguments in the case of cognition is paper and pencil ... whether you do long division in your head or with the assistance of your body and the world via paper and pencil, it's still cognition.

Is there an analog for consciousness? ... that is, is there something "conscious" you can do both in your head and in the world? ... of course, the subtext here includes things like "where does cognition end and consciousness begin?" and "what exactly is it that you 'do' when you do something 'conscious'?" ... :perplexed: thoughts?

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@paulhanke,

There is no conscious processing going on. We could do long division just as proficiently in our heads if we had the ability to concentrate on the 'picture' long enough. The picture flickers, it doesn't want to stay put because that would mean the chemicals and processing would need to be constantly driven in order to do so. But very few brains work that way.

Doing long division in your head is a great way to show how one has no control over processing the problem. It is all subconsciously worked upon. Why does the flickering happen?

The environment is just an extension. Sensations provide a constant feed of stimulation to the brain. There is no worry over trying to self generate a stimulation to provide mental pictures to work out the problem.

Ofcourse there are ways around this though. You can train yourself to think differently about math to be able to do complex math in your head easily. Hawking can't write anything down so how does he do it?

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@Holiday20310401,

... so there are cognitive feats that humans can do either in the brain or with the assistance of the body and the world ... but isn't it also true that the cognitive feats of contemporary humans can be orders of magnitude more complex than the cognitive feats of, say, the ancient Greeks due to advances in techniques for enlisting the world into our cognitive endeavors? ...

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@paulhanke,

Without our technological extensions or any other extensions for that matter, a modern extensionless person of today would basically equate to the extensionless ancient greek. There are effects that cause IQ gain over time like the flynn effect, however this is probably due to the stimulus of these extensions, in other words the environment.

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@Holiday20310401,

Glad to see ya back paul!

I wish I could be of more help and informative but Im beat from working all day.

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@paulhanke,

Think of when you were a child and add the idea of stealing your first ever lolly (candy bar). You notice that the shopkeeper sees you and you know that it is a crime and still you watch each other as you reach for the object. You grab it and pocket it, as your gaze had already left the other and they knew you were going to do that. Five years old, 1972.

Yes PaulHanke, there is. You just have yourself to admit it. You may not see it as I did but see it I did. It is cognition, when you know you can do it, as with the long division. The first time it is just your conscious that performs, it then becomes a cognitive act.

Kind of makes Roberta Flacks song, "The first time ever I saw your face", seem even granduer.

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@Holiday20310401,

Holiday20310401;73540 wrote:

Without our technological extensions or any other extensions for that matter, a modern extensionless person of today would basically equate to the extensionless ancient greek. There are effects that cause IQ gain over time like the flynn effect, however this is probably due to the stimulus of these extensions, in other words the environment.

... so if humans can offload cognitive functions out into the world, can we offload conscious functions into the world?

The introspective/intuitive answer here seems to be "no" - "self" is too strong a notion for its boundaries with the world to be blurry and/or fluctuate, as is the case with cognition.

But let's look at things from a dynamic systems perspective for a moment ... for example, a mesh of chemicals flow through a collective state space and out emerges a neuron ... a mesh of neurons flow through a collective state space and out emerges a cognitive function ... so let's hypothesize that a mesh of cognitive functions flow through a collective state space and out emerges a consciousness ... given that humans are offloading cognitive funtions out into the world more and more each day and that consciousness emerges from the network effects of the cognitive collective, would that imply that the physical correlates of consciousness include those elements of the world that we have enlisted as cognitive functions?

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@paulhanke,

paulhanke;73659 wrote:

... so if humans can offload cognitive functions out into the world, can we offload conscious functions into the world?

There are no conscious functions.

paulhanke;73659 wrote:

The introspective/intuitive answer here seems to be "no" - "self" is too strong a notion for its boundaries with the world to be blurry and/or fluctuate, as is the case with cognition.

I love how you put introspective and intuitive together, that's exactly how I'd describe it. Smile

paulhanke;73659 wrote:

But let's look at things from a dynamic systems perspective for a moment ... for example, a mesh of chemicals flow through a collective state space and out emerges a neuron ... a mesh of neurons flow through a collective state space and out emerges a cognitive function ... so let's hypothesize that a mesh of cognitive functions flow through a collective state space and out emerges a consciousness ... given that humans are offloading cognitive funtions out into the world more and more each day and that consciousness emerges from the network effects of the cognitive collective, would that imply that the physical correlates of consciousness include those elements of the world that we have enlisted as cognitive functions?

Well it's all an open system, right. But there is a practical difference between what the intrinsic system is doing, and what the extrinsic system is doing. Granted, the intrinsic system (brain, body...) is shaped via the environment, but there is practically no complexity in the extrinsic system that could specifically function to provide consciousness. It just feeds information (thus autopoiesis) and the body collects it via sensory neurons. The chalkboard does not have a constant addition to the complexity of the system, the chalkboard is only capable of an 'extension' and only when it can be sensed. It's not part of the intrinsic system.

I guess the chalkboard would technically add to one's 'consciousness'. Flow states and deep thought might be more easily triggered via an extension of something as simple as a paper and pencil. And these states of mind are like an increase of consciousness, if nothing else.

There's an interesting article about how the intrinsic variability of neurons themselves attribute greatly to the way information is handled in the brain and thus cognitive functioning.

Warning, the article may take simple concepts and inflate them needlessly into a bunch of jargon to hide how redundant each paragraph is of one another.

Variability in Brain Function and Behavior

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@Holiday20310401,

Holiday20310401;73741 wrote:

There are no conscious functions.

... which brings us to the elephant in the room: what the heck is consciousness?! Wink

Holiday20310401;73741 wrote:

Well it's all an open system, right. But there is a practical difference between what the intrinsic system is doing, and what the extrinsic system is doing.

... that depends upon where you draw the boundary between "intrinsic" and "extrinsic" ... and can that boundary be redrawn? ... as Clark observes in "Supersizing the Mind":

Quote:

It is a common observation, however, that the use of simple tools can lead to alterations in the local sense of embodiment. Fluently using a stick, we feel as if we are touching the world at the end of the stick, not (once we are indeed fluent in our use) as if we are touching the stick with our hand. ... In thinking about the case of stick-augmented perception, there would seem to be two key interfaces at play: the place where the stick meets the hand and the place where the extended system "biological agent + stick" meets the rest of the world. ... But ... the new agent-tool interface itself fades from view, and the proper picture is one of an extended or enhanced agent confronting the (wider) world.

Holiday20310401;73741 wrote:

There's an interesting article about how the intrinsic variability of neurons themselves attribute greatly to the way information is handled in the brain and thus cognitive functioning.

Warning, the article may take simple concepts and inflate them needlessly into a bunch of jargon to hide how redundant each paragraph is of one another.

Variability in Brain Function and Behavior

... great article ... I like how the author presents both sides of the chaos-vs.-quantum debate as it relates to the foundation of creativity and novelty and then essentially asks "does it matter?" Wink

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@paulhanke,

Holiday20310401, there are conscious functions. Hypothesize that in the next great election to be held in the United States, rather than vote ones own conscience, list two or three demands and allow that to elect the next president. They exist already across the board of life, we are just to lazy to use it in any process because it is easier to just let the next person look after that, or let the situation take care of itself. It is a consciuos function to form a fire brigade, ambulance service and so on and so on.

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@urangutan,

Urangutan, though your statement does nothing to prove there are conscious functions, I realize now that my statement is just as much, an assumption, though intuitive at first, there might not be a simple answer.

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@paulhanke,

Two words. Group therapy.

Being there, being seen there, contributing, acceptance.

Isn't group therapy, the chalkboard, I say this because as long as you accept either of the other terms, you are perfoming a conscious function. I don't know whether you are trying to ascertain whether it is possible to asess Conscious functions in a sole environment but in a group setting it seems obvious.

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The physical correlates of consciousness.

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