Thought

@Holiday20310401,

I would say yes, thought is attributed to a sensation, similar to proprioception (sensing where your limbs are in space). We make thoughts, thoughts are within us, but that doesn't rule out that we sense them. So, here's another question: According to Berkeley, do thoughts, therefore, exist?

1 Reply

@noumenon,

Holiday20310401 wrote:

We can sense thought, right?

Yes we do sense we are thinking [thought is the product of thinking].

noumenon wrote:

do thoughts, ....., exist?

Yes, thoughts do exist as notional beings [as opposed to actual beings].

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@Holiday20310401,

Do we "sense" thoughts in the same way that "sense" heat? We may be aware of our past thinking (or that we are thinking at the time), but this awareness seems to be entirely different from sensation.

I am not sure what is meant by "attributed to any sensation." It surely doesn't mean in any sense that sensation is a precondition or a cause of thought. Does it mean that thought is accompanied by some physical sensation, and if so what might this sensation be? Is it, moreover, always the SAME sensation?

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@Holiday20310401,

I think we sense thoughts not quite in the same way as something like heat, because heat is a sensation and thought is a cognition, then there are other things such as blue which we sense in yet another way. But we sense them all... we only know each one because of the qualia each has.

There is less reason to say that we make our own thoughts... for all we know, our thoughts enter our mind at random and we sense them, and feel as though we made them, when in actual fact we didn't.

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@Holiday20310401,

Quote:

....for all we know, our thoughts enter our mind at random and we sense them, and feel as though we made them, when in actual fact we didn't.

If this were the case, then where would these thoughts enter our minds FROM? And why would these necessarily be random; could one not also make a case for their being purposefully "planted" in our mind by some evil gremlin?

To say that thoughts are "sensed" would imply that there is a sensory organ capable of doing the sensing, just as vision implies an eye. Moreover, sensation seems more immediate, while our awareness of thinking is always an awareness of past thought.

1 Reply

@jgweed,

jgweed wrote:

If this were the case, then where would these thoughts enter our minds FROM? And why would these necessarily be random; could one not also make a case for their being purposefully "planted" in our mind by some evil gremlin?

The thoughts don't necessarily come FROM anywhere, that would imply spacial properties to a non-spacial thing. They could just appear as they are, coming from nowhere. But yes, it also makes sense that they could be planted by something else (an evil gremlin, or perhaps God).

jgweed wrote:

To say that thoughts are "sensed" would imply that there is a sensory organ capable of doing the sensing, just as vision implies an eye. Moreover, sensation seems more immediate, while our awareness of thinking is always an awareness of past thought.

I don't think so. A sense organ is only necessary for sensing if you take a completely materialist view (which would need to be backed up). Any kind of mental state could be said to be 'sensed' by the mind... the mind being all that's necessary for sensing.
The eye offers a scientific explanation for how light from the external world enters our brain, but the actual 'sense' of sight takes place completely in the mind.
I personally think I am aware of my thought as it happens. For it to exist I must be aware of it, in the same way that pain does not exist unless someone is aware of it.

1 Reply

@Welshie,

Welshie wrote:

I don't think so. A sense organ is only necessary for sensing if you take a completely materialist view (which would need to be backed up). Any kind of mental state could be said to be 'sensed' by the mind... the mind being all that's necessary for sensing.

Materialism just sounds better, analog sensations and matter. This immaterial substance just seems useless to me.

Welshie wrote:

The eye offers a scientific explanation for how light from the external world enters our brain, but the actual 'sense' of sight takes place completely in the mind.

Are you referring to the mind as the processor or the consciousness?

Oh and are you a real philosopher? Smile

Just curious:o

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@jgweed,

jgweed wrote:

Do we "sense" thoughts in the same way that "sense" heat?

Jgweed, the answer to your question is in the quotation below:

Welshie wrote:

I think we sense thoughts not quite in the same way as something like heat, because heat is a sensation and thought is a cognition.

Moreover, you have already acknowledge that

jgweed wrote:

We may be aware of our [ed] thinking

jgweed wrote:

To say that thoughts are "sensed" would imply that there is a sensory organ capable of doing the sensing.

Yes, our sensory organ is the brain.

So, we have words like "sense, cognition, awareness" [/COLOR]and let us see if we find any "sense" outside the cognition or awareness. The answer is NO.

Our five senses [sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch] are only possible if we are aware[/COLOR] of them.

Awareness is a cognitive [mental] process which is larger than the sum of all five senses.

Conclusion:
YES, we sense thoughts and this sense already been called "cognition" or "awareness".

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@Holiday20310401,

You wouldn't rather take a dualist approach to have the material world plus account for the immaterial mental states? Personally I'm more of an Idealist I think, though I'm not entirely sure. And for the mind I normally mean the consciousness... but then by 'mind' I wouldn't really mean the unconscious mind as well, which is the processing bit, though it seems there is interaction going on.

I'm not really sure haha... not officially but I'm pretty certain I'm a philosopher :cool: to be honest though I'm just a 17 year old guy who's been studying philosophy as an a-level course for the last year and a half :bigsmile:

1 Reply

@Holiday20310401,

so, democritus, how do you know they are notional as opposed to actual?

1 Reply

@noumenon,

noumenon wrote:

so, democritus, how do you know they [thoughts] are notional as opposed to actual?

Noumenon, if I am thinking a "ladder to the Moon", or "flat Earth" there are no such things [not actual] but in my mind [notional beings]. If I am saying "I", I am certain I do exist [ I am an actual being].

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@Holiday20310401,

nono, that's not entirely what I meant. If you have a thought, how do you know it doesn't exist in the actual sense in, say, a parallel universe?

1 Reply

@Welshie,

Welshie wrote:

You wouldn't rather take a dualist approach to have the material world plus account for the immaterial mental states?

When you say immaterial mental states, do you mean the mental projection? If so, then is it true it is not material?:perplexed: It's all material (matter, energy).

And Jgweed, when I say "attributed to sensation" I do mean it is a precondition for thought. Why can't that be the case?:detective:

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@noumenon,

noumenon wrote:

how do you know it [thought] doesn't exist in the actual sense in, say, a parallel universe?

Noumenon, this tread of debate is about "Can we sense thought" and I hope I have answered with reason.

Now you are puting a new question: "how do you know it [thought] doesn't exist in the actual sense in, say, a parallel universe?". I think you should open up a new debate with your own reasoning.

One general and technical point: This type of questions [like how do we know non-existing of god or an exotic plant in another planet] do not need any answer rather than the claimer have to prove it really exists.

You can't prove of non-existence of anything [outside the boundries of current scientific knowledge].

Thanks
democritus

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