identity as it pertains to free will

i feel you have either misunderstood my thoughts, or i have misunderstood your response, although i appriciate your help

I could have quite easily gone off on a tangent of your statement but I think I am giving an interpretation firstly of the point I raise in conclusion. Which I am sure you were alluding too. Of course, I could still be wrong about it. All except the cake.

maybe you can reword your response? and i'd love to hear your of tangent thoughts! thanks again!

I presumed you were talking about how our decisions were effected by the traits of our selves that we inherit. Who taught us what and what we learned from. In an example that takes the culinary delights into account, we all know that pasta was something that the Polo expeditions brought back from China. What we forget is that for some three hundred years or so, there was no tomato sauce to have with it as the tomato was introduced from the New World. So a trully traditional "Italian" pasta dish does not have tomato as the sauce base.

An agnostic might forget that the morals by which they live with and abide, were indoctrinated into the psyche of those who may well have taught them to be the individual that they have become and the line is endless for the change of influence.

my main argument is that you cant create your initial self- you nailed the 2nd part of my argument though: you cant control your initial influences

so if that is true- do you really have control over anything you do?

Sorry but that to me reads silly. If you can choose between options that you have an understanding of, then control is assured. Doesn't necessarily make it the right choice but it is control none the less. Outside of this scope, a response may be formed from progammed influences, or simply be a case of not thinking at the time.

As to your main arguement, I could say I disagree on a scientific basis, in that if Evolution is our creator, then in words no different to that a Hindu practitioner might say, you are a human because you earnt that ability and in saying that, you are the creator of your initial self.

You cannot control your influences once they have influenced you but you can deny them being an influence and that would counter the point you feel I nailed. It isn't just cut and dry, you can gain control, lose it, never have it, always be in it or any variation of these and others.

nice response- however the main issue is still not addressed:

let me give an example: ted is in an ice cream shoppe. he can choose vanilla or chocolate ice cream. ted makes a free choice of his own will to order vanilla ice cream. assuming that this is accurate, lets step way back to ted's beginning. wether you beleive ted started his life with a complete clean slate, or with a disposition of any type, one thing is undeniable: and that is that ted did not decide his original disposition, or his future influences. even if ted's soul is eternal ted could not have created ted's initial starting point- its ridiculous.

now fast forward to ted's choice at the ice cream shoppe ted's disposition and life experiences have formed ted into the person he is today, and he (the identiy formed as ted) can make his own decision of his own free will. however the identity was not chosen, and therefore destiny out of his control. :eek:

hope you can respond one more time! thanks again for all your help and discussion!!!

Nah, you see at the end there you are admitting there were more flavours in the "shoppe", flavours they were unaware of or weren't allowed to know of. So for that you simply claim that Ted is incomplete or rather less than they could be. However true that may ring, simply learning that one can mix the only flavours offered is sufficient to assume that there is always prospect. One may see only forks in the road, others can see the reserve in between.

Either may still mean there is no completion but you can't have everything because for that you must also have nothing.

wow you seemed to have really missed the point again i dont think i can narrow in any better.

my postulate on identity as it pertains to free will:

in regards to a person making choices and directing ones own life, they refer to their own values and life experiences. even if one did not start with a clean slate (had a inclination to be inquisitive, timid, outgoing etc.), one did not choose these dispositions or experiences.
therefore even if one does have a free will when making a choice to eat a piece of chocolate, or run a marathon, they did not create their self initially. you can have anything that wasn't first given to you.

let me give an example: ted is in an ice cream shoppe. he can choose vanilla or chocolate ice cream. ted makes a free choice of his own will to order vanilla ice cream. assuming that this is accurate, lets step way back to ted's beginning. wether you beleive ted started his life with a complete clean slate, or with a disposition of any type, one thing is undeniable: and that is that ted did not decide his original disposition, or his future influences. even if ted's soul is eternal ted could not have created ted's initial starting point- its ridiculous.

now fast forward to ted's choice at the ice cream shoppe ted's disposition and life experiences have formed ted into the person he is today, and he (the identiy formed as ted) can make his own decision of his own free will. however the identity was not chosen, and therefore destiny out of his control.

im not concerned with being right or wrong- hope this can bring up some interesting discussion

Don't ask me what is going on here I have no idea. Half the thread has been split off and this is not the running. So Emergent Monkey, we may either have to drop it or something else which is what I have no idea about.

Just hope this doesn't appear next to and with the remaining thread when I click on the posting tab to make me really look like a fruit cake, nut job, psycho, which in Australia we would simply say "wanka".

Just as I thought. It half did as the remaining of the post reappeared but the begining which was your introduction and such has been repasted I would guess.

Maybe I am going out on a limb here, but if all you are after is conformation, might I suggest the Catholic church, as it is the only place I know of that offers it in a complete form. If there is a shred of anything else in your point, I am going to have to remain mute because I really cannot see it. Not that I want to end here but you got me.

yeah im pretty confused too- anyways wish i understood you better and vice versa- i think my point is at the very least interesting if not valid. thanks for your time.

someone else care to join us here?

I'm in.

The title of your thread, "Identity as it Pertains to Free Will," sounds interesting.

Why don't you restate your thesis/point in whole, and have us start from the beginning?

sweet! ok- lemme revise and ill repost before monday =D