Ideas to Reform the Penal System for Economic Gain

@as0l0,

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because they wouldn't re-offend...

You also mentioned other crimes besides repeat offenders.

Widespread executions is the method of tyrants.

@Didymos Thomas,

It most definitely takes a bit more than a couple tablespoons of nutmeg, but I know what you mean, eat a dozen wooly marygold seeds;) (high LSA content).
I completely agree with you, however, it is not going to fly with the majority of the voting populus as these considerations take a couple generations to sink in...but it is most certainly better to do it right all at once than to continually revise and improve the laws. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that people's fears are too easily played upon to count on rational decision making, you have to wean people off of their predjudices. The only way seems to be through baby steps, almost an induced "slippery slope" as it were.

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@Zetetic11235,

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It most definitely takes a bit more than a couple tablespoons of nutmeg, but I know what you mean, eat a dozen wooly marygold seeds;) (high LSA content).

Wikipedia claims 4-8 tablespoons, but I really don't know as I've never been dumb enough to try the stuff. Absolutely right about marigold seeds.

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I completely agree with you, however, it is not going to fly with the majority of the voting populus as these considerations take a couple generations to sink in.

The people were easily mislead about these drugs in the first place. We went from selling marijuana in Sears-Roebuck to locking people up for tiny amounts in less than a generation. Granted, the progression to Nixon's War on Drugs took a generation, but that was more a matter of having the people grow used to the stink of the initial drug laws before giving them the real mess. Either way, I don't see why the majority of people cannot adopt a reasonable attitude towards recreational drug use - if the government is honest with them.

Already a majority of Americans do not see marijuana as a dangerous drug, despite the government and corporate propaganda. Our society is still free enough that truth can take root if enough people look around. Imagine how quickly the stigma and bias would evaporate if the politicians and bureaucrats stopped lying and adopted and honest message. At the very least we might stop force feeding our children speed.

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but it is most certainly better to do it right all at once than to continually revise and improve the laws. The unfortunate fact of the matter is that people's fears are too easily played upon to count on rational decision making, you have to wean people off of their predjudices. The only way seems to be through baby steps, almost an induced "slippery slope" as it were.

Change has to be incremental. Slow progress allows us to better address our mistakes. Instantaneous upheavals leave everything a mess - and in the case of drugs, that includes a multi-trillion dollar market place employing millions.

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@Didymos Thomas,

The speed actually does work in adhd afflicted people, my brother is one example of someone helped by the drugs. Do not disgard the whole add/hd movement just because it in large part has deformed into a cure all for kids that don't behave. It most definitely has been gone about the wrong way and has lost much of its scientific validity especially with the ignorant public school system pushing it now through their cherry picked psychs. The ignorant mishandleing of the disease and misunderstanding of its characteristics have damaged those who are severly afflicted.
That being said, I know a great many people who have messed around with a great many drugs and still lead fairly productive, normal lives. I have also known a few that went downhill and became paranoid on pills, hooked on oxy ect and its not cool, but it was their chioce to take the risk. It seems that most people who have some education and fear of the drug can control their usage of the more addictive drugs as long as they make it somthing for a rare occasion. Education is the key, if people are made well aware of the risks, the real risks, I think that responsible usage is possible. I mean hell, look at Bush and Obama, they both have had their little excursions into the drug world and look at where they are now, granted that some drugs are playthings for the rich and detrimental to the poor(this should be made a main point in drug education, the dangers to different socio-economic groups).

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@Zetetic11235,

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The speed actually does work in adhd afflicted people, my brother is one example of someone helped by the drugs. Do not disgard the whole add/hd movement just because it in large part has deformed into a cure all for kids that don't behave. It most definitely has been gone about the wrong way and has lost much of its scientific validity especially with the ignorant public school system pushing it now through their cherry picked psychs. The ignorant mishandleing of the disease and misunderstanding of its characteristics have damaged those who are severly afflicted.

My family spend a small fortune testing my brother for ADD and dyslexia. He was diagnosed and put on speed. The drug helped him in school, to be sure. And he is not the only example I know of personally who benefited from the use of speed to treat ADD/ADHD.

Apart from the general criticisms of the drug being over prescribed I have one very serious warning, even for those who might benefit from the drug in the short term.

Amphetamine is a highly addictive drug. Even if the drug is useful for some treatment, 25 milligrams a day is the beginning of a nasty drug addiction. And I've seen that addiction play out - children who began taking the stuff at eight or ten are blowing lines in the back of classrooms at fifteen. I don't think the parents were ready, and I think the parents were mislead about the nature of the drug.

But we are in absolute agreement on your general point - education is key Smile

The problem is that we lie to our youth. We give them mantras like 'Just Say No'. We teach them that all drugs are always bad and destructive. Of course, when they smoke their first joint they realize they were lied to. Now they don't know what to believe about the truly dangerous drugs - like cocaine and heroin.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas;16196 wrote:

You also mentioned other crimes besides repeat offenders.

Widespread executions is the method of tyrants.

well that was my whole point, there just wouldn't be re-offenders.

Anyway, I didn't really notice it before, but the thread title talks about economic gain. I wonder if a lot of crime is caused by, or for, economic gain.

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@as0l0,

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well that was my whole point, there just wouldn't be re-offenders.

Okay. I suppose if we have no trouble with tyranny, then the wide spread executions would be effective. But again, I am not convinced that this would have long term effects. Once the tyrant is dead, who is there to fear? Wouldn't we see a new crop of criminals every generation?

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Anyway, I didn't really notice it before, but the thread title talks about economic gain. I wonder if a lot of crime is caused by, or for, economic gain.

Of course. Damn near all of it.

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@Didymos Thomas,

With all due respect, you dont seem to understand thomas. My brother has Adhd as well, without it he gets violent as well as hyper and becomes very impusive, in fact, he is so impulsive that we were worried for a long time about him hurting someone. Its probably not a very usual manifestation and it may be combined with other problems, but he needs the medicine in and out of school. It is specifically Addero that he uses, a few other types caused a lot of weight loss. I have met other kids with severe adhd, they need the medicine.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Okay. I suppose if we have no trouble with tyranny, then the wide spread executions would be effective. But again, I am not convinced that this would have long term effects. Once the tyrant is dead, who is there to fear? Wouldn't we see a new crop of criminals every generation?

it's a user pays system. no one need die unless they choose to.

tyranny seems to be based more on an individual holing tyrannical power. I'd expect the majority to agree with the punishments. If the majority don't agree, then so be it.

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@as0l0,

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With all due respect, you dont seem to understand thomas. My brother has Adhd as well, without it he gets violent as well as hyper and becomes very impusive, in fact, he is so impulsive that we were worried for a long time about him hurting someone. Its probably not a very usual manifestation and it may be combined with other problems, but he needs the medicine in and out of school. It is specifically Addero that he uses, a few other types caused a lot of weight loss. I have met other kids with severe adhd, they need the medicine.

Right. Again, my brother also benefited from the treatment. I agree, there are cases where the drug's use seems to be justified. My brother, and apparently your brother, are two such cases.

However, I also know that the drug is wildly overprescribed - and this sometimes occurs in cases where the drug is useful. Even when prescribed in appropriate amounts, the drug is addictive and easily abused. Early use of prescribed speed is often the beginning of later problems with addictive drugs. Education is the best remedy.

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it's a user pays system. no one need die unless they choose to.

tyranny seems to be based more on an individual holing tyrannical power. I'd expect the majority to agree with the punishments. If the majority don't agree, then so be it.

Then count me as someone lobbying against such laws.

Tyranny can come from a majority - Plato taught us that.

Every legal code, however brutal and arbitrary, could be termed a 'user pays' system in this way. The people know the conditions, for them to exist under the conditions is to accept them, right? See, I don't really buy that. I think civil disobedience is a valuable tool. And if upon my second offense the government offs my head, how can I protest? How can anyone protest?

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

Then count me as someone lobbying against such laws.

Tyranny can come from a majority - Plato taught us that.

Every legal code, however brutal and arbitrary, could be termed a 'user pays' system in this way. The people know the conditions, for them to exist under the conditions is to accept them, right? See, I don't really buy that. I think civil disobedience is a valuable tool. And if upon my second offense the government offs my head, how can I protest? How can anyone protest?

then let's move on to the society that doesn't value money or personal gain above all else. I remember Plato mentioning something about that too....

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@as0l0,

Absolutely - not only do I agree with you about society, but you're right about Plato.

All much easier said than done, I'm afraid. What you describe requires a great deal of self control.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

What you describe requires a great deal of self control.

well we could kill all the people without self control Very Happy

I think Plato would agree.

But seriously. This thread is part of the problem. "How can we make money of prisoners (or crime)".

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@as0l0,

Is it? It lead to your discussion and realization of the exact problem so I would contest that it is part of the solution.

Didymos, you are right, education is most often the key to solving problems of this sort, but also; its easier to throw a bandaid over somthing such as ethanol fuel or adderol when it is very far from a proper solution and everyone knows it. It is not simply education, if it were things would be much easier, it is human weakness. Ignorance, lazyness, emotional haste, all negatives play on the same team and we must redirect the tide of negatives as best we can.

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@Zetetic11235,

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well we could kill all the people without self control

I think Plato would agree.

Ah, but I often disagree with Plato - especially when we talk of politics. His criticisms of democracy (majority rule, as we mentioned earlier) , however, are difficult to overcome. Wink

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Didymos, you are right, education is most often the key to solving problems of this sort, but also; its easier to throw a bandaid over somthing such as ethanol fuel or adderol when it is very far from a proper solution and everyone knows it. It is not simply education, if it were things would be much easier, it is human weakness. Ignorance, lazyness, emotional haste, all negatives play on the same team and we must redirect the tide of negatives as best we can.

This might be interesting - how to we overcome ignorance other than by education? What other systematic solution is there, apart from education, that could significantly contribute to the general understanding, work ethic, emotional maturity, ect?

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@Didymos Thomas,

The only way I know of is mental conditoning, somthing most difficult and a bit tyranous, but I think it is done now to opposite ends. If we can condition people that bettering themselfs through a specific path is correct, then problem solved, somewhat... we must make sure the people not only know, but understand what is 'wrpng' and why it is so.

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@Zetetic11235,

Isn't education mental conditioning?

Then again, you mention your methods might be tyrannical. While I suggest offering and promoting education, using violence to enforce the eduction, or to encourage some other sort of mental conditioning seems counter productive. If we want mind control, we give them any freedom at all?

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@Didymos Thomas,

systematic forced public education is tyrannical, and I think we both know how flawed the public education system is. Teachers rights come before students rights, the teachers union and standardization of education have not in mind the improvment of education, but the norming of it to such a level that they can guarantee it to everyone. How do you keep the educators straight. Intelligence is not a substitute which can excuse ignorance, so how does noe become qualified to educate..perhapse this idea is itself deserving of a thread.

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@Zetetic11235,

I know there hasn't been any activity on this thread for a while, but I've only just signed up, so please forgive me for reactivating this.

In regard to the original concept of prisoners being employed in their given specialties, speaking from some 14 years experience in the criminal justice system, the numbers of highly qualified prisoners (at least in the Australian system) is significantly limited. Speaking from an Australian perspective, the majority of prisoners have limited vocational skills or employment histories. Also, prisoner employment is legislated to ensure that prisons, both State and private, don't have an unfair advantage over privately owned businesses. Prisoners' wages in Australian gaols are fixed at rates well below anything paid in the community, this would give prison industries an unfair advantage in tendering for contracts. Also, employment is voluntary, so problems could arise in ensuring the completion of contracts.

Now, the concept of the penal system as a rehabilitative tool. There is research (I can't think of the references now, but they can be easily found on the net) indicating that employment and stable housing on release from prison has a big impact on recidivism. If the majority of prisoners have limited vocational skills and employment history, the use of prison time to provide the necessary education and employment opportunities could be seen as going some way to assisting prisoners to not re-offend. In regard to payment, prisoners should be paid going industry rates, but should also be expected to pay their own way in prison (accommodation and food at going commercial rates) in order to provide them with the skills to manage their lives more effectively in the community. This could be seen as slavery, coercion or any other label you care to place on it. On the other hand, it could be seen as an opportunity to provide prisoners with the necessary skills to stay out of prison. This is a fairly simplistic concept and would benefit from ongoing contact with external industries as is happening in some parts of South East Asia. Australian prisons do have limited "works release" programs where prisoners are allowed to work outside the gaols in private industries. Those programs should be extended and encouraged. We continually hear about a skills shortage in this country, however, we allow a large number of prisoners to be released with no significant improvement in their skill levels or work ethics. Seems silly, doesn't it?

BTW, in terms of the war on drugs and other harsh penalties, check out this site: The Netherlands
Also, the US has the death penalty in some states, however, murders still occur in those states. Prison, the death penalty and prohibition do not stop crime, they only make the general populace feel more comfortable.

PaulG.

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@PaulG,

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In regard to the original concept of prisoners being employed in their given specialties, speaking from some 14 years experience in the criminal justice system, the numbers of highly qualified prisoners (at least in the Australian system) is significantly limited. Speaking from an Australian perspective, the majority of prisoners have limited vocational skills or employment histories.

This is very much the case in the US, and I would imagine true in most countries. The poor and poorly educated are far more likely to go to prison.

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Now, the concept of the penal system as a rehabilitative tool. There is research (I can't think of the references now, but they can be easily found on the net) indicating that employment and stable housing on release from prison has a big impact on recidivism.

The Japanese system takes advantage of this. For first offenses, incarceration is a life of rehabilitation. The day is filled with activities; regimented exercise, meditation, and learning some trade keep the inmates busy. Apparently, the system is reasonably successful; low recidivism rates.

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BTW, in terms of the war on drugs and other harsh penalties, check out this site: The Netherlands

And the Dutch system has worked - they have managed to lower drug use. Meanwhile, the US struggles to cope with very serious methamphetamine and heroin problems and spends billions in futile projects.

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Also, the US has the death penalty in some states, however, murders still occur in those states. Prison, the death penalty and prohibition do not stop crime, they only make the general populace feel more comfortable.

Not only does this make intuitive sense, the facts seem to support you as well. But the public doesn't buy empirical data, they buy their immediate emotional reactions.

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Ideas to Reform the Penal System for Economic Gain

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