Gender Pay Inequality

@Khethil,

I know this is a socialist response but why concern yourself solely with the peas when the meat is still on the plate. There should be a single wage across the board, irrespective and nothing will change my mind. It should be sufficient to survive, build and grow.

1 Reply

@urangutan,

One wonders if there is a major disparity in earnings between trans-gendered people as such and their "normal" counterparts that might interfere with the conclusion about male/female disparity.

3 Replies

@jgweed,

All good points, thanks guys.

Yea, I just thought it unique (novel approach, perhaps?), and hadn't seen this "look at transgenders" in terms of examining the issue. Whether or not it's valid or indicative is up for debate.

1 Reply

@Khethil,

Fascinating bit of research and yes the approach to the issue is interesting.

Couldn't help but get a chuckle out of this part:

Quote:

As a younger attorney, the lawyer had been Susan; now he was Thomas. He told Schilt that after he transitioned from female to male, another lawyer mistakenly believed that Susan had been fired and replaced by Thomas. The other lawyer commended the firm's boss for the replacement. He said Susan had been incompetent; "the new guy," he added, was "just delightful." (Later, Ben Barres, an FTM neurobiology professor at Stanford, told The Wall Street Journal of a similar experience. An attendee at one of his lectures leaned over to a colleague and said, "Ben Barres' work is much better than his sister's.")

Can anyone find out how many people were studied as a part of this research? I'm curious but don't see that info anywhere.

It seems to me that a lot of factors have to be considered on this issue and many different studies would need to be reviewed before a decisive conclusion on the issue can be reached. Women could conceivably make less then men, without it being a result of discrimination. In this trangender research I have to wonder why, if FTMs can more easily pass as women than MTFs, FTMs only earned an average of a 1.5% pay increase, which doesn't seem to be particulary significant.

Not to be sexist, but I do wonder if men happen to be more reliable in the workplace than women. If men tend to miss less time from work, and tend to be more devoted to their work (for whatver reasons) then it would seem reasonable that men usually make more than women. That is, of course, IF that situation is the case. I wouldn't be too surprised if it was, as it seems to me that women tend to be more committed to their families in many ways, which could detract from their ability to devote themselves to their work as much as men. Nonetheless, I certainly don't know that this is the case at all.

The idea that I've had in mind was that as most Western societies realize more general gender equality, and as more women achieve higher education credentials (both of which I've assumed to be happening) that we'd see the gender difference in incomes continually decrease until reaching a more or less "fair" status. I hope this is what's happening, but I guess I see at least some reason to believe that it's not now.

2 Replies

@jgweed,

jgweed wrote:

One wonders if there is a major disparity in earnings between trans-gendered people as such and their "normal" counterparts that might interfere with the conclusion about male/female disparity.

As someone who IS transgendered, and knows many other people who are, I can definitely say yes. Transgendered people experience much more discrimination, and they are a minority group not yet protected (at least by UK law).

Also it is true that female-to-males (FTMs) "pass" much more easily as being the gender they present, than MTFs do. A transgendered woman (MTF) even on completion of all treatment, will never look completely feminine. A FTM, even at the very beginning of treatment (or sometimes with no treatment at all and with nothing more than a hairchut, a change of clothes, and a tight vest to compress the breasts) can pass well enough that people won't notice. And once they're on testosterone hormones, the voice has broken and the facial and body hair grows, its impossible to tell without looking in their underpants. So the FTMs are going to get less discrimination because in many cases no-one thinks they're anything but an ordinary guy.

So yes, the test is flawed, but it's interesting nonetheless. A good test of how well transgendered people "pass".

0 Replies

@Khethil,

just for the lighter side of Men and Women go to the website MEN ARE BETTER THEN WOMAN.COM

its funny to read what this guy thinks.

1 Reply

@Joe,

Paranoid delusions is it today? Lovely, lovely, lovely.

Pigs and pot... "I say!" Meat is a problem, but the most obvious solution to avoid such disturbance would be the worst, and end up feeding the industrial meat farming cycle (the solution being to make the meat 'disappear' somehow).

Quote:

Not to be sexist, but I do wonder if men happen to be more reliable in the workplace than women. If men tend to miss less time from work, and tend to be more devoted to their work (for whatver reasons) then it would seem reasonable that men usually make more than women. That is, of course, IF that situation is the case. I wouldn't be too surprised if it was, as it seems to me that women tend to be more committed to their families in many ways, which could detract from their ability to devote themselves to their work as much as men. Nonetheless, I certainly don't know that this is the case at all.

How would one react to the situation of state work for everybody... I'm not much of a Communist in almost all respects, but I do find the idea of being found for work attractive, in comparison to a single option to either find work for oneself or not work at all. I'm not talking physical labour, and nor am I talking administrative goon-dom, what I'm talking about is a benefits system that runs with some social benefit issue - a bit like community service for criminals who aren't very naughty as such (like cleaning poo out of tramps shoes and washing the corporate adverts off the left ass-cheek of the bus driver - for the not so naughty knife-wielding drugs hair-pins in this world).

Perhaps all these people who aren't being paid enough might like to beef up their CVs whilst making toupes for the war veterans at the governments expense...

It is a laugh a minute these days I tell you.... Ho Ho Ho.

0 Replies

@jgweed,

jgweed wrote:

One wonders if there is a major disparity in earnings between trans-gendered people as such and their "normal" counterparts that might interfere with the conclusion about male/female disparity.

I can hardly imagine this study proves anything as far as the gender gap goes. There is some nice anecdotal evidence, but dealing with preconceptions and prejudices against the transgendered seems to me like a very different beast.

Quote:

I know this is a socialist response but why concern yourself solely with the peas when the meat is still on the plate. There should be a single wage across the board, irrespective and nothing will change my mind. It should be sufficient to survive, build and grow.

I agree that there are bigger fish to fry, but I cannot understand how you formulate a solution to injustice that institutionalizes it across the board.

There is a disproportionate number of blacks in prison. Should we all go to prison? Or should we just make sure we send enough whites to prison to make sure that the statistics even out?

0 Replies

@Deftil,

Deftil wrote:

... Not to be sexist, but I do wonder if men happen to be more reliable in the workplace than women...

I don't honestly know. But I can tell you that in my experience, this hasn't been the case.

More than likely, there isn't any gender-correlation in terms of reliability. Perhaps we have stat-geeks out there who can help.

Thanks

1 Reply

@Khethil,

To re-phrase the idea of a single "across-the-board" wage for everybody,SAFE' chemical alternatives to lactose/fat/etc.
5. Maximum revelry - such as free alcohol and party cheese/sausages, free parties for ever and a rota of amazing musicians being paid exorbitant sums of money on the basis that they must spend at least 50% of their musician-income on after-parties and narcotics for all the musically inept revelers.

I have lots more ideas... anyway.

Let's say that these states/nations kept all other laws and customs with which they have developed their democratic system, but kept a stringent eye on these new more 'positively discriminatory' 'laws'. We could have trials, perhaps similar to the trial of legalized cannabis consumption in Lambeth in London. And supposing some of the states/nations become exceptionally popular and others not so, we could have a limit on the number of years a person could spend there.

I kind of draw this idea from a book I read when I was growing up called 'Fast Forward'; it was a fantasy book, and the main character navigated around different zones in a world held captive inside a cube with a cyclical system of water, on top was a lake I think, and inside there was a 'cat-zone' where pet cats had inherited their owners homes and yet were fed, or other zones for drunken revelry, or sleeping, or sports etc.

I would never advocate such an idea as the one in the book, but as an inspiration it seems quite cool, loike yaah?

0 Replies

@Deftil,

Deftil wrote:

Fascinating bit of research and yes the approach to the issue is interesting.

Couldn't help but get a chuckle out of this part:

Can anyone find out how many people were studied as a part of this research? I'm curious but don't see that info anywhere.

It seems to me that a lot of factors have to be considered on this issue and many different studies would need to be reviewed before a decisive conclusion on the issue can be reached. Women could conceivably make less then men, without it being a result of discrimination. In this trangender research I have to wonder why, if FTMs can more easily pass as women than MTFs, FTMs only earned an average of a 1.5% pay increase, which doesn't seem to be particulary significant.

Not to be sexist, but I do wonder if men happen to be more reliable in the workplace than women. If men tend to miss less time from work, and tend to be more devoted to their work (for whatver reasons) then it would seem reasonable that men usually make more than women. That is, of course, IF that situation is the case. I wouldn't be too surprised if it was, as it seems to me that women tend to be more committed to their families in many ways, which could detract from their ability to devote themselves to their work as much as men. Nonetheless, I certainly don't know that this is the case at all.

The idea that I've had in mind was that as most Western societies realize more general gender equality, and as more women achieve higher education credentials (both of which I've assumed to be happening) that we'd see the gender difference in incomes continually decrease until reaching a more or less "fair" status. I hope this is what's happening, but I guess I see at least some reason to believe that it's not now.

It has been my experience that women, are more reliable. That is just my own experience though, which naturally would create my opinion.

The men who have helped me, were by in large unwilling or resentful to do what they might consider menial. The women who have helped me, had no problem doing anything I asked of them. Maybe in the back of their mind they might have had a thought or two about that, but, they did not voice any objections. They just did the work.

Again, that is "my" experience. I'm sure there are exceptions but, I like to play the percentages. In my life, they are more reliable.

0 Replies

@Khethil,

The issue of the pay divide is two-fold really:

1. Do men get paid more than women for achieving the same thing in the same role?
2. Are roles that men perform better paid than roles that women perform?

A lot of statistical discrepancies between what men and women do are not necessarily down to real statistical differences between natural male and female abilities and inclinations, but equally some surely are.

The question then is: if the answer to (2) is 'Yes', is this because society has arranged itself historically to reward excellence in roles in which men have advantages over women, or is it because the roles that men tend to excel in are naturally more effectively economically harnessed? Or, if both, how much of each?

0 Replies

Gender Pay Inequality

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