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New article about suicide

 
 
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Fri 20 Feb, 2009 08:55 am
@xris,
xris

Quote:
I have always thought those who contemplate suicide as very self centred and have little thought for those they leave...am i being harsh? I had friend whose son killed himself, it destroyed him and his wife..Its never those who kill themselves that suffer..If they think they are suffering could they contemplate who they leave?My sympathy lies with those whose lives are destroyed by these acts..


I think you are a little harsh when it comes to the person who has attempted suicide. When one reaches this state the possibility of hurting your beloved out weighted by the unspeakable pain and trauma that brought you to this place of utter despair

I have tried this and believe it or not it was a wake up call for me and the beginning of a path back to living in the world I am a manic depressive and logic does not apply when one becomes delusional

I now am obsessively careful to take my medication for just the reason you stated , the hurt of those you leave behind. It is a guilt and warning that never goes away.

And yes a depressive is absolutely self centred and completely caught up in his own little world of sorrow, but not deliberately. One only realises the unimaginable pain and disappointments you have caused your beloved when you return to normality
0 Replies
 
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 08:17 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
Didymos Thomas wrote:
But mental illness does not necessarily mean more likely to commit suicide. How many mentally ill people do not commit, or even attempt, suicide?

I think you're right; we have to try as best we can to diagnose and treat mental illness. But given the impulsive nature of so many suicides, addressing mental illness seems only a portion of the pie. Guns account for a large number of successful suicides in the US, many of which seem to be impulsive - take away the guns and, if the article is accurate, we should see a sharp decline in successful suicides in the US.



Do sane people have the right to take their own lives? Do the mentally ill have the right to take their own lives?

Suicide is not the act of a mentally healthy person.
0 Replies
 
WithoutReason
 
  1  
Reply Sun 22 Feb, 2009 09:47 pm
@xris,
xris wrote:
I have always thought those who contemplate suicide as very self centred and have little thought for those they leave...am i being harsh? I had friend whose son killed himself, it destroyed him and his wife..Its never those who kill themselves that suffer..If they think they are suffering could they contemplate who they leave?My sympathy lies with those whose lives are destroyed by these acts..


I sympathize with you and your friend for the unfortunate loss of his son. However, I'm afraid I must object to your claim that those who kill themselves do not suffer. Is the very fact that they do suffer not what drives them to suicide in the first place?

I have tried to live my life with the understanding that I cannot truly understand how any other person feels at any moment in time. I also believe that everyone else is in the same position I am. No one can ever completely understand what another person is having to endure. In my case, I do not know specfically how other people feel, but given that I have experienced far more than my share of unpleasant circumstances in my life, circumstances that I certainly in no way asked for, I do know what emotional pain feels like, and I do know that it is often far worse than physical pain.

Suicide should never be a first choice, and fortunately it is a choice that only very few find necessary to make. But given that we are all different, and we all respond to similar circumstances differently, who am I to know whether pain and suffering I could endure is something another person can endure? Who am I to decide that just because I've been able to endure it, someone else must be able to as well and should be forced to until she finds a way?

Suicide in most cases is a selfish act because it places one's own suffering and desire to terminate it above the suffering of others that will result. But are not those who do not wish for a loved one to commit suicide also selfish? It is not also selfish for others to force someone to continue living in suffering because they do not want to lose that person?
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2009 06:48 am
@WithoutReason,
Elmud


Quote:
Suicide is not the act of a mentally healthy person.


That is correct, a person in a healthy state of mind will simply never commit suicide.

People suffering the unspeakable horrors of the holocaust death camp will cling to life until their last breath.

It would have been easy to commit suicide there simply by insulting a guard would have resulted you been shot or worse
0 Replies
 
xris
 
  1  
Reply Mon 23 Feb, 2009 12:03 pm
@WithoutReason,
WithoutReason wrote:
I sympathize with you and your friend for the unfortunate loss of his son. However, I'm afraid I must object to your claim that those who kill themselves do not suffer. Is the very fact that they do suffer not what drives them to suicide in the first place?

I have tried to live my life with the understanding that I cannot truly understand how any other person feels at any moment in time. I also believe that everyone else is in the same position I am. No one can ever completely understand what another person is having to endure. In my case, I do not know specfically how other people feel, but given that I have experienced far more than my share of unpleasant circumstances in my life, circumstances that I certainly in no way asked for, I do know what emotional pain feels like, and I do know that it is often far worse than physical pain.

Suicide should never be a first choice, and fortunately it is a choice that only very few find necessary to make. But given that we are all different, and we all respond to similar circumstances differently, who am I to know whether pain and suffering I could endure is something another person can endure? Who am I to decide that just because I've been able to endure it, someone else must be able to as well and should be forced to until she finds a way?

Suicide in most cases is a selfish act because it places one's own suffering and desire to terminate it above the suffering of others that will result. But are not those who do not wish for a loved one to commit suicide also selfish? It is not also selfish for others to force someone to continue living in suffering because they do not want to lose that person?
Sorry but how can i have sympathy for the dead they are beyond my sympathy. They new nothing of their sons intentions and he had shown no signs of depression or in need of help.They are tormented by the fact that they never had a chance of helping him. I dont judge all who are driven to this desperate act but on many occassions it appears to be a first option rather than a long road of anguish.
0 Replies
 
Elmud
 
  1  
Reply Tue 24 Feb, 2009 09:59 pm
@Aedes,
Aedes wrote:
From today's NY Times magazine, very worthy of discussion here!
[INDENT] July 6, 2008
The Urge to End It All

By SCOTT ANDERSON
"There is but one truly serious philosophical problem," Albert Camus wrote, "and that is suicide." How to explain why, among the only species capable of pondering its own demise, whose desperate attempts to forestall mortality have spawned both armies and branches of medicine in a perpetual search for the Fountain of Youth, there are those who, by their own hand, would choose death over life? Our contradictory reactions to the act speak to the conflicted hold it has on our imaginations: revulsion mixed with fascination, scorn leavened with pity. It is a cardinal sin - but change the packaging a little, and suicide assumes the guise of heroism or high passion, the stuff of literature and art.

Beyond the philosophical paradox are the bewilderingly complex dynamics of the act itself. While a universal phenomenon, the incidence of suicide varies so immensely across different population groups - among nations and cultures, ages and gender, race and religion - that any overarching theory about its root cause is rendered useless. Even identifying those subgroups that are particularly suicide-prone is of very limited help in addressing the issue. In the United States, for example, both elderly men living in Western states and white male adolescents from divorced families are at elevated risk, but since the overwhelming majority in both these groups never attempt suicide, how can we identify the truly at risk among them?

Then there is the most disheartening aspect of the riddle. The National Institute of Mental Health says that 90 percent of all suicide "completers" display some form of diagnosable mental disorder. But if so, why have advances in the treatment of mental illness had so little effect? In the past 40 years, whole new generations of antidepressant drugs have been developed; crisis hotline centers have been established in most every American city; and yet today the nation's suicide rate (11 victims per 100,000 inhabitants) is almost precisely what it was in 1965.

Little wonder, then, that most of us have come to regard suicide with an element of resignation, even as a particularly brutal form of social Darwinism: perhaps through luck or medication or family intervention some suicidal individuals can be identified and saved, but in the larger scheme of things, there will always be those driven to take their own lives, and there's really not much that we can do about it. The sheer numbers would seem to support this idea: in 2005, approximately 32,000 Americans committed suicide, or nearly twice the number of those killed by homicide.

But part of this sense of futility may stem from a peculiar element of myopia in the way we as a society have traditionally viewed and attempted to combat suicide. Just as with homicide, researchers have long recognized a premeditation-versus-passion dichotomy in suicide. There are those who display the classic symptoms of so-called suicidal behavior, who build up to their act over time or who choose methods that require careful planning. And then there are those whose act appears born of an immediate crisis, with little or no forethought involved. Just as with homicide, those in the "passion" category of suicide are much more likely to turn to whatever means are immediately available, those that are easy and quick.

Yet even mental-health experts have tended to regard these very different types of suicide in much the same way. I was struck by this upon meeting with two doctors who are among the most often-cited experts on suicide - and specifically on suicide by jumping. Both readily acknowledged the high degree of impulsivity associated with that method, but also considered that impulsivity as simply another symptom of mental illness. "Of all the hundreds of jumping suicides I've looked at," one told me, "I've yet to come across a case where a mentally healthy person was walking across a bridge one day and just went over the side. It just doesn't happen. There's almost always the presence of mental illness somewhere." It seemed to me there was an element of circular logic here: that the act proved the intent that proved the illness.

The bigger problem with this mental-illness rubric is that it puts emphasis on the less-knowable aspect of the act, the psychological "why," and tends to obscure any examination of the more pedestrian "how," the basic mechanics involved. But if we want to unravel posthumously the thought processes of the lost with an eye to saving lives in the future, the "how" may be the best place to look.

To turn the equation around: if the impulsive suicide attempter tends to reach for whatever means are easy or quick, is it possible that the availability of means can actually spur the act? In looking at suicide's close cousin, murder, the answer seems obvious. If a man shoots his wife amid a heated argument, we recognize the crucial role played by the gun's availability. We don't automatically think, Well, if the gun hadn't been there, he surely would have strangled her. When it comes to suicide, however, most of us make no such allowance. The very fact that someone kills himself we regard as proof of intent - and of mental illness; the actual method used, we assume, is of minor importance.
[/INDENT]
Read More :a-ok:
The drugs don't always work. Seems like there is a tendency to assume a chemical imbalance in most cases. Such as seratonin or norophenephrin. But, I always wondered , if a person takes the drugs, and the chemical balance is actually normal, what effect can the medicine have but to create an imbalance of too much. I believe traumatic events can trigger mental illness. Such as a broken heart, or, passing of a loved one, and more. 90% is probably accurate, although the remaining 10% , for reasons of extreme pain or whatever, cannot be in a heathy state psychologically either.
Alan McDougall
 
  1  
Reply Wed 25 Feb, 2009 07:40 am
@Elmud,
Elmud


Quote:

Then there is the most disheartening aspect of the riddle. The National Institute of Mental Health says that 90 percent of all suicide "completers" display some form of diagnosable mental disorder. But if so, why have advances in the treatment of mental illness had so little effect? In the past 40 years, whole new generations of antidepressant drugs have been developed; crisis hotline centers have been established in most every American city; and yet today the nation's suicide rate (11 victims per 100,000 inhabitants) is almost precisely what it was in 1965.


Thank you for this informative and true article it confirms what I stated in a previous post, a healthy person simply will not commit suicide Smile
0 Replies
 
 

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