'Religion's gotta be practical'

@Israelite007,

The book of Corinthians describes how the church life will be like, no matter which religion or place of worship you choose. They do of course serve a good purpose to provide the basics of salvation and so forth.

Here are some helpful scriptures.

Heb 5:12 For although by this time you should be teachers, you again need to have someone teach you the rudiments of the first principles of the oracles of God. You have come to need milk, and not solid food.
Heb 5:13 For everyone who lives on milk is not experienced in the word of righteousness, for he is a baby.
Heb 5:14 But solid food is for those who are full grown, who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern good and evil.
Heb 6:1 Therefore leaving the teaching of the first principles of Christ, let us press on to perfection-not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, of faith toward God,
Heb 6:2 of the teaching of baptisms, of laying on of hands, of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
Heb 6:3 This will we do, if God permits.

1Co 3:4 For when one says, "I follow Paul," and another, "I follow Apollos," aren't you fleshly?

Act 7:48 However, the Most High doesn't dwell in temples made with hands, as the prophet says,
Act 7:49 'heaven is my throne,
and the earth a footstool for my feet.
What kind of house will you build me?' says the Lord;
'or what is the place of my rest?

1Co 3:16 Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?

Luk 17:20 Being asked by the Pharisees when the Kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The Kingdom of God doesn't come with observation;
Luk 17:21 neither will they say, 'Look, here!' or, 'Look, there!' for behold, the Kingdom of God is within you."

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@Didymos Thomas,

Didymos Thomas wrote:

If you ask me, we are all the 'children of God' - you and I are both the sons of God. The son of God, Jesus, is one of our brothers who happens to be insightful.

Jesus Christ seems to be more than just an insightful brother. He was the Son of-God. No one has ever seen the Father; Christ existed in eternity past, and God created all things through Jesus Christ.

I don't believe he was just another avatar of God.

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@Dustin phil,

Quote:

Jesus Christ seems to be more than just an insightful brother. He was the Son of-God. No one has ever seen the Father; Christ existed in eternity past, and God created all things through Jesus Christ.

The Son of God? I'm not so sure about that. If he was the Son of God any more than I am (with the exception of his great insight and wisdom, for in that sense, he was/is certainly closer to the father) he would not have taught us to pray "OUR father, who art in Heaven".

Jesus said God is "Our" father. Though, I'm open to your arguments as to why Jesus was wrong here.

Have you not seen the father? Look around.

And have "you" not always existed. Has something that comprises you not always existed?

What do you mean by "God created all things through Jesus Christ"? What do you mean by "God created"?

Jesus was a man. He was born, and then he died. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. The ashes were, then they were a man, then ashes again. Perhaps tomorrow a tree, or the pillow I rest my head on. Who, other than God, could know?

Israelite007 - Do not thank me! Thank God if you know that all of his children can understand, and that many have, even if they use different language to instruct the rest of us.

My time goes to study. I should instead practice. But studying helps.

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@Didymos Thomas,

Thomas, would it be possible to have a discussion without the argumentative tone? I would be more than happy to share my views with you, and I will respect the way you see things. However, I would much rather prefer a friendly-like discussion, as I think we can get more accomplished that way.

Maybe we can continue this in the thread entitled Concerning the Nature of Jesus.

P.S. I won't have much time for discussion tonight, but I do have one thing to add: Jesus Christ was without sin for his entire life; not once did he ever sin. I don't believe you or I can say this.

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@Dustin phil,

Dustin wrote:

Jesus Christ was without sin for his entire life; not once did he ever sin.

How do you know? Isn't there a fairly sizable portion of his life that has no account whatsoever in the Gospels?

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@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

How do you know? Isn't there a fairly sizable portion of his life that has no account whatsoever in the Gospels?

Aedes, how do we know anything? There is only one way to know something.

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@Israelite007,

I think you know things in a different way than I do. Maybe it boils down to the same phenomenon of blind faith in the end; but I would imagine that you and I have vastly different degrees of skepticism about inherited beliefs. And I'd argue that the word "know" can have several meanings. For an individual to "know" implies a level of confidence. For us collectively to "know" implies a certain amount of verifiability using evidence that is accessible to all of us. So if you want to take your contention that Jesus was completely 100% free of sin during his brief life span on earth and translate it from individual to shared knowledge, you need to at minimum answer my question as to how you know this.

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@Aedes,

Quote:

Thomas, would it be possible to have a discussion without the argumentative tone? I would be more than happy to share my views with you, and I will respect the way you see things. However, I would much rather prefer a friendly-like discussion, as I think we can get more accomplished that way.

My habit of shotgunning questions may seem abrasive, and for this I apologize. But I assure you the questions are serious ones, and my interest is hearing the reply of a friend.

I am also interested in Aedes question in response to your claim about Jesus never having sinned as I am not sure that he never sinned.

Sure, we can return to the thread you linked to for this particular discussion. Seems appropriate.

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@Didymos Thomas,

The Bible says Jesus was made sin for us, but he did not sin.

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Heb 4:15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.

I will try to catch up with what has been said in the other thread and make another post there.

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@Israelite007,

Dustin,
How can the Bible make a global statement about his entire life if it cannot account for what happened during most of it?

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@Aedes,

Unless you see signs and wonders, you will in no way believe. Joh 4:48

Why does this generation seek a sign? Most certainly I tell you, no sign will be given to this generation. Mar 8:12

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@Dustin phil,

Dustin,
This is a philosophy discussion group. That means that everything, including scriptural passages, are subject to analysis. And that, in turn, means that you're not actually engaging us in philosophy if the extent of your argument is verbatim scriptural quotes.

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@Aedes,

Hello Aedes,

I discovered this forum through the philosophy of Walter Russell, someone who observed God at a very young age. Part of his philosophy was that man's knowledge is his power, and the expression of that power is in his thinking. He believed that man must acquire this knowledge through the Source.

There are many scriptures in the bible that inform us not to lean towards our own understanding, and to trust in God with all our heart; that is what I will do. The bible is God-breathed (2Tim 3:16) and profitable for teaching. If one thousand years is but a day to God (2Pe 3:8) then surely he is capable of preserving his word for a little two days.

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@Israelite007,

Ok Dustin, let's say for the sake of argument that I find all Biblical passages to be devoid of any value other than historical influence and literary merit. Let's say I find no truth in the Bible.

Is there any way you and I can go on having productive conversations here if that's true?

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@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

Ok Dustin, let's say for the sake of argument that I find all Biblical passages to be devoid of any value other than historical influence and literary merit. Let's say I find no truth in the Bible.

May I ask how you come to know what truth is? It would help me to better understand your viewpoints if I knew more about why you've came to these conclusions and what your beliefs are.

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@Israelite007,

Truth is an aspiration that we can approach by living, experiencing, and understanding the world. The only thing we can say for sure about absolute truth, if there is such a thing, is that we as individuals will NEVER know it so long as we see the world through one set of eyes and within one conscious mind. So long as we're one conscious, sentient entity, there is no way to distinguish between a general, absolute truth and our own solipsism.

So how do we communicate about supposed truths with one another? We can start by operating from a shared vantage point. And if your vantage point excludes ANY source of truth other than scriptural quotations, then you're not going to be able to exchange ideas except with those who share your vantage point.

And why don't I find literal, absolute truth in the Bible? Well, there are many reasons, but here's one in particular -- why would I? For creation stories I find the Poetic Edda, Hesiod's Theogony, and the Rig Veda to be far more compelling. For moral accounts I find the Bhagavad Gita and the Dhammapada to be more compelling. For heroic stories of a people, I kind of like the Mahabharata and the Iliad. And for metaphysics I kind of like the Tao Te Ching.

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@Aedes,

Aedes wrote:

Truth is an aspiration that we can approach by living, experiencing, and understanding the world. The only thing we can say for sure about absolute truth, if there is such a thing, is that we as individuals will NEVER know it so long as we see the world through one set of eyes and within one conscious mind. So long as we're one conscious, sentient entity, there is no way to distinguish between a general, absolute truth and our own solipsism.

So how do we communicate about supposed truths with one another? We can start by operating from a shared vantage point. And if your vantage point excludes ANY source of truth other than scriptural quotations, then you're not going to be able to exchange ideas except with those who share your vantage point.

Do you believe one Source alone created the universe? If so, perhaps we could start from there.

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@Israelite007,

Hehe, that's a bit of a loaded question. To use the word "created" implies an external agency outside the universe itself. And there is no reason to believe that such an agent exists or existed. All of the forces and phenomena that we observe within the universe exist within the universe's components. So while I believe that the origin of space and time, as explained by physics, points towards a unifying moment, I do NOT believe that there is any evidence for an external creator (let alone a conscious, moral one).

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@Aedes,

You're exactly right: there is no such thing as an external creator; everything exists within God - framed by His Word.

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@Israelite007,

Dustin, biblical quotations are regarded as myth by atheists.
Even religious people have a hard time being on the same page about biblical quotes half of the time...that is what I believe Aedes was getting at.
So what is your view on the subject, outside of what is quoted in the bible? What does your mind have to say about it? Forget the fact that there is a book that people who have a common cause such as Christianity can relate to...forget for a moment that the bible can be quoted.
I'm not trying to be abrasive about this by the way, just trying to even the playing field a little. It's hard to do so, however, when the majority of any Christians' debate is based on bible quotations. I understand that a deep understanding of the bible will be incredibly tempting to pull quotes to cement one side of a debate, but quoting a book that is regarded as fiction by many people is hardly a way to hold your ground...do you know what I mean?
Keep it up, it is a very interesting topic.

Quote:

Detestable Practices

9 When you enter the land the LORD your God is giving you, do not learn to imitate the detestable ways of the nations there. 10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [a] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD, and because of these detestable practices the LORD your God will drive out those nations before you. 13 You must be blameless before the LORD your God.

But yet you quoted:

Quote:

Unless you see signs and wonders, you will in no way believe. Joh 4:48

Why does this generation seek a sign? Most certainly I tell you, no sign will be given to this generation. Mar 8:12

...even if a sign was given to us, we would be condemned for looking for it, according to the bible.

Such a confusing book.

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'Religion's gotta be practical'

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