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Words of Wisdom

 
 
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 03:48 pm
@Israelite007,
Quote:
I by no means suggest that religion be displaced out of the lives of men; however those beliefs become a problem when we fail to recognize that every man is entitled to their own beliefs. Granted, most religions are good natured, and wish to set guidelines for living, but whenever violent actions are committed in the name of that religion, that ideology becomes tainted by blood; usually innocent blood. When a religion restricts children from escaping a burning building because they aren't wearing proper religious attire, that religion is totally destructive to human nature. Throughout history these horrific acts have been committed, and the only positive contributions produced by way of religion has been the individual freedom to express it.


We can attribute many horrible things to perversions of religion, just as we can attribute many horrible things to perversions of government. To go so far as to say "the only positive contributions produced by way of religion has been the individual freedom to express it" is simply false. Easily enough, we can imagine the great charity religious institution have been responsible for. We can imagine the benefit of spirituality and religion in the life of a man - moral guidance.

Quote:


You draw the wall imagery out too much. Reason, unity and compassion are real in this world. They have been championed by an untold number of wise men. What would it be to "build a wall" of these things but to teach them? And yet these values have been taught for over a millennia. The change is already there, megalithic shifts are not needed - personal, individual shifts are needed. Every man must embrace these values personally for change to take place universally.

As for megalithic change - extremes are always dangerous. Change is a process, and processes take time. Not everything worth doing is "worth doing big". If I'm playing a jazz gig and on a slow blues shuffle I need to accent the one, if I "go big" I over play and ruin the tune.

Quote:
I totally agree that there is much good to reap from religion, but if I lend you five dollars every other day, then punch you in the nose on the alternate, which is going to be more prevalent in your mind? Personally, I would only be my friend every other day, but that's beside the point. I'm doing a good deed. My ideology is that through suffering you are strengthened, and your suffering will pay off. Is it necessary? Of course it is, my god told me that this is the right way. And don't you dare tell me I'm wrong, because both of my deeds are good, and I have a right to believe what I want. My god told me to make everybody believe the 'truth' and that's what I plan on doing.


Hopefully my memory will be accurate enough, and my wit honest enough, to recall and admit that you've both punched me in the nose and given me money.

As for your less than thrilling straw man regarding religious beliefs, that some religious people are fools does not demand that the whole population of the religious are fools.

Quote:
Do you see where I'm coming from on this issue?


Yes, and however well intentioned, I think what you suggest is misguided.

Quote:
As you said, we need to separate the good from the bad, but in most religions these beliefs of good and bad are subject to opinion, and to them they are inseparable words of God, and if he said one, then the other is right. Some religions and ideologies would need to be disposed of entirely, especially the ones that violate human rights, and the morals taught by the peaceable religions can be embraced.


Unlike you, I do not advocate some megalithic social change as part of my prescription for these problems. I advocate focus on what you and I can change - ourselves.

Quote:
I cannot see religions disposing of the bad without disposing of the religion entirely realistic. Their premise is that a deity that is infallible gave them guidelines to live by, and that all taught in that religion is true. Its all or none for them. For us with open minds, we can pick and choose what values are good and what values are bad.


So, you say some are too dumb to follow a peaceful path in life? That such a life is limited to "us"? We, who are as we are, by the grace of god (in the colloquial sense, by sheer luck if you will).

Also, why can we not keep the good in religion and cast out the bad. By good, I mean valuable spiritual teaching. By bad I mean perverse religious instruction (ie, God wants you to kill the infidels). It seems to me that in my life I am capable of sifting through the messages to do just this. Can we force such a thing across a whole population? No. Can we make this change within ourselves? Yes. Thank god.
0 Replies
 
kennethamy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 05:12 pm
@Israelite007,
Israelite007 wrote:
Words of Wisdom


In life we always have a choice some people say "I don't have a choice."


I think that when people say that, they mean only that they do not have a good choice, not that they literally have no choice.
0 Replies
 
Didymos Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 06:29 pm
@Israelite007,
Many have denied freewill and anything kin to freewill. If someone says they have no choice, they very well may mean what they say literally. Context should make clear their intended meaning.
NeitherExtreme
 
  1  
Reply Sat 23 Feb, 2008 07:36 pm
@Didymos Thomas,
There's also the possibilty that someone could be talking from emotions rather than making an intellectual argument... It might be that they don't feel like they have a choice, or that they feel like the choice they will make (or are making) is inevitable.
0 Replies
 
vajrasattva
 
  1  
Reply Sun 6 Apr, 2008 10:45 am
@Israelite007,
God


Were we to separate one thing from the whole of reality, and remove every past present and future thought, every comparison and every bit of knowledge about any things in relation to it. Leaving only the present view of the thing and its essence as the complete oneness of reality. One could hardly deny the awe and wonder about that one thing, regardless of what it is or what it means in the world of duality and multiplicity. With that being said, it could be logically stated that each thing has about it a perfect essence that expresses it self in the consummation of purpose. When actualized each thing, including the human, comfortably and happily goes about its being in a way that compliments life itself in a subtle but glorious manner. It is this actualization of purpose that brings about an awareness of the perfect essence of life so apparent in singleness, and it is singleness itself that allows for this actualization of purpose. This essence of a thing does not imply that the thing itself is perfect but it does imply that that in its nature and being itself something about it is indeed perfect. What is this perfection? Where dose it come from?
What is it about man that we so readily deny and misapprehend the meaning, and existence, of perfection? Especially when the natural beauty of life itself is beyond human reason, and evolves, even to the compliment of the human condition even in light of our lack of awareness of nature itself. How can we not see the integrity of existence in light of our destructive behavior? However due to this natural integrity things remain in balance and will continue to, due to the singularity and essence of being.
This essence is universal, we become aware of it in the continuum of the unconscious mind, and it expresses itself and its nature in the religions of the world. Love, compassion and wisdom undeniably pervade the essence of being, and are present in all things. Even the most atrocious of acts are governed by this principle in the form of love of self, and cause some of the most heroic acts of love and compassion known to mankind. This singleness of divine essence is to me undeniable, and is seen in everything in this world.
Because of this divine essence the concept of god is found in every part of the world. Though it is called by different names the concept itself pervades the phillosophys and religions of the world.
This essence is separate from human nature in that the decernment of the human mind does not allow for it to be fully realized and this is the cause of spiritual progress in the world. None the less the essence itself is seen in the moment and is the essence of transcendental compassion in mankind. Because of this essence we are drawn to each other as though we have an internal bond that cannot be broken.
Just as the world viewed from afar is beautiful, so is the individual and the individual thing. It is the discerning nature of the human mind that allows for the concept and awareness of imperfection. With discernment from multiplicity, pride from self, and judgment from discernment, we come to the common understanding of the imperfect. However no thing can be said to be imperfect in singularity, considering the essence of its creation and the consummation of purpose be it in actuality or in concept. So, it is multiplicity and knowledge that brings about the awareness of imperfection due to the comparisons made by human nature. However in actuality all things are part of a whole so in reality their is no multiplicity. So it is knowledge that allows for awareness of imperfection. Knowledge causes awareness of imperfection because it allows for discernment and comparison of objects of consciousness which allows for judgment and in judgment we choose what suits us best seeing one thing as more perfect than the others. This is delusion because their is logically no measure of perfect and because what works for one may not work for another. Because what is perfect is, and has no measure and logically exists in some sense be it in concept or in precept it dose exist in reality itself in some way. A concept exists in the mind as an atom exists in the water. The mind projects onto reality as light projects onto the wall. By the mind we view reality. Through reality we view the mind. Because of this, the existence of mind cannot be denied and a concept is as real as the mind itself. This is shown by our intrinsic awareness of perfection and the universal understanding of the concept of perfection. We look for perfection even though we do not know what it is, we feel perfection even though we are unaware of its aspects. When one experiences perfection one knows what has taken place and is unable to describe it with anything but the word perfect itself.
This intrinsic awareness of perfection is a universal thing due to the fact that all things are of a singular essence. This singular essence due to its perfect nature and the well known and commonly held view that god is personal and trans personal could be said to be god itself. God implies perfection and perfection implies god so one must assume that if as we have shown a perfect essence exists and that perfect essence must be god itself.
It is a commonly held view that god exists in and outside of us, endowing each individual with a certain sense of purity and an awareness of perfection. As said before each thing when separated from the whole and brought into singleness has a primordial essence which could be called god nature. From this issues our sense of autonomy and the cognitive mind itself, the conscience and many other singularly human qualities. Along with these come the qualities of discernment and intelligence which are essential to the survival of the human species, but coupled with knowledge can be detrimental to the apparent spiritual nature singular to the human spices due to the fact that discernment and intelligence lead to questioning.
Discerning it self is not bad but coupled with knowledge it sometimes turns into judgment and in judgment we discerns right and wrong good and evil and thereby create a black and white view of reality causing judgment of others leading to hypocrisy and other forms of "sin".As well as the view that either god exists or he doesn't. When in fact the word existence for a being like god is hardly an adequate term for such a being. This sin separates us from god and allows for us to judge and discern it with our human nature and if god is given human qualities it will always fall short of the mark, leading to fear and doubt hence the lack of belief in some people. But the inherent nature of perfection in people is undeniable and is the cause of the commonly held belief of the soul. This belief denied by some is held in different form by others and is a universal concept throughout humanity. This universal awareness of perfection as has been shown is commonly held and must have some basis in reality. This I believe is reasonable proof of gods existence. Due to the fact that awareness of perfection along with the nature of singleness in life itself implies that some guiding force is at work and that force is indeed perfect. In essence what some call god is evolution or the collective unconscious but regardless of name or concept the force itself exists. Weather or not you consider it a being is another thing but one must at least see the logic in a perfect guiding force in life.
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