Ideological Democracy....

simplistic

Consider this: Democracy is a form of relationship, and like all relationships is essentially one with one. The ideal may help you to understand and classify, but if the one with one does not work, nothing works. You can't build relationships with ideals, but you can measure or understand them. Democracy is an ideal, a form; but what we have seen in recent times is the ideal becoming repressive. Communisim is a form of economy and is, like all economies, a form of relationship. Should it ever become more important than the living people in it? I doubt it. If the ideal and the form does not fit the relationship it is the ideal that is wrong.

Democracy is self government. It never denies the power of the individual, and says rather that all people, and not just the majority must agree. It is defensive of the person and of the society. In America, it is our naturally defended frontiers that have most endanger democracy because no threat from without excused division and exploitation within. Since we are made up of many peoples from many nations, some of whom think nothing of joining in the exploitation, we will be hard pressed to establish democracy. If we do establish democracy it will not be natural, based upon a common nationality, but will be unnatural, motivated, or forced by an ideal. Still, to work, it must work one relationship at a time. People will count as computers count, One with one with one forever.

So what is the overall purpose of the site then? It's covered, but worded in an abstract way at some points, so I don't think I fully understand your actual goal.

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

Aristoddler: I agree with you about the wording, and it is something that I am working on. Nobody ever attacks the utilitarian mathematics, they always attack the subjective presentation. I'm writing a new presentation that uses examples from history. Although this will still be subjective, it will appease those who could never recognize something new, as it is. They have to be drawn to believe it is of an academic nature. Most people can't believe that something is new, if they didn't think of it.

The purpose of the site is basically to gain a consensus of all people. The reason the site is called Civil Simian is because it takes you backward in time, before we were refined into skin color, and culture. It will be a simple majority rules website. It wont write laws in any way. It will be voluntary participation. You become a member, just by belief in the system. There is no symbolic rights ritual, or linch pin emotional cleansing moments of hysteria. It's simply a mathematical universal calculator which will bring the most popular ideals to the top, in a pyramid of ideas. Think of it as a focal point of the ideas and values of the participants, created by the participants. Ideological systems of the past have been created by people for people, then you idolize the person as a symbol. I made the name Civil Simian cheap, and humorous so it would be impossible to do this, plus the system itself is a discovery of mathematics, and a pure democracy, not polluted by law. Since it is based on math, it is my belief that idea can be the first OBJECTIVE system, while created by man, is logically understood.

Fido: I disagree with you about Democracy. There is republic style democracy, and illiberal democracy. Mine is more of a republic style democracy because it makes no extra formulas (yet) for minorities, railroaded by the majority. That is because, ultimately, after the merge of people, I believe that social dispersement of energies will mean that there will be no more minorities. You can see the energy fragmenting in this postmodern time. New minorities may arise in the future, but I really think to keep the democratic idea clean for Civil Simian, the republic style works best mathematically. I'm not putting health care, or welfare in place, so I can make decisions like those.

Democracy is somewhat flexible. You can never get everyone to agree, and democracy is not about that. Democracy is about majority. Sometimes 51%, sometimes two thirds majority. Take the vote counting out of the system, and let the people's ideals be calculated in real time.

Imagine this: Instead of having designated voting days, have the leaders completely dependent upon public opinion. Instead of electing people, and putting them into office for four years, where they get complacent and cocky in a symbolic position that seems to infect every male with elephantitis of the testacles, make the office contingent upon real time voting. You can come to a website, and change your vote on a leader, and when that leader falls below for a specified amount of time, usher in a new one, and if the people enjoy a certain great man as their leader, why should be be ushered out to put an idiot in his place after four years?

How about the Iraq war? If the people were aloud to vote on that, do you think we would be there now? And if the people don't have the ability to see the intelligence, then, let them make their own mistakes, at least they will be responsible for it. These are the ideals of what I believe true democracy is made of, and as of yet, we have had imitations of a great idea. I hope to use Civil Simian to put this purity, and "simplicity" forward.

I have the Apache server up, and I'm working on the beginnings of the PHP, and MySQL. Good luck guys.

But it doesn't involve the minorities that cannot afford, or have no access to the internet.
Therefore, it is already horribly biased.

As devil's advocate I must point out, the Principle of Greatest Equal Liberty is that each person is to have an equal right to the most extensive total system of equal basic liberties compatible with a similar system of liberty for all.Having a method of democracy that disallows a group of people from participating, is going against the liberties that that democracy should be standing for in the first place.

It doesn't disallow anything. In fact, with wireless technology the majority of people around the world will be reached with the internet, and I have actually spoken to people who are designing low power computers that are powered by foot pedals.

Again, this idea can't be judged by what is fair for government because it doesn't deign to make laws. It simply shows popularity submitted, and supported by the people only.

There will be a viewable statistic page so you can get a better idea about the kinds of people participating.

I find it a bit ridiculous you would call it horribly biased, when the system itself has nothing to do with who has internet or who doesn't, nor does it drive toward alienating those who don't. Put chance happenings where chance happenings lie, and choice where choice lies.

If I don't have access to the internet, can I still use your site?

neat idea
i think hes onto something about the internet though
and its whole purpose for existing
not that it exists specifically for his idea
but as a phenomena of communication
but with your idea you seem to focus on social issues but no economic issues
with no minorities whos gonna mow the grass or cut the trees or work all the crappy jobs noone is gonna wanna work, whos gonna dig ditches and lay roads?
how do economics come into play with your system without having it effect it in a selfish way? giving everyone a "voice" isn't the perfect solution
life is full of horrible qualities that will be expressed and even in your system corruption would manifest itself
i think really what you've pointed out here is what the internet does already.. except its information isnt applied directly as a system..

Ok, I'm going to tear into this one L0ck...but only because you wrote it in point form with detailed queries.
No, it does not exist specifically for his idea, but it is a great tool for communication. Those using the internet can share their ideas with those who do not have it.
The site did mention economic issues, but only briefly as example statements. I think it's assumed that economic issues would be handled in the same manner as social.
Just because someone is a minority, doesn't mean that they have to cut grass for a living...this isn't the 50's. All the gardeners and low-pay workers around here are just as white as I am, and the guy who owns the bank is Hatian/Oriental mix. My bosses are Portuguese, Greek, Jewish and French. My son's teachers are black and Spanish. The minority comment is insulting and in no way tolerated here. Philosophy is about equality as well as learning.
Economics can play a part in a system without being selfish, but it would mean entering into a communist development, not a capitalist one that we seem to be leaning towards here in North America.
Corruption manifests itself in man, not in a system...so you are right there, since man is needed to perpetuate the system.
The internet does provide information, but knowing what to do with it is what needs to be done more. Selecting the gold from the trash is also difficult since anyone can buy a domain and call it gospel truth. If it has a professional looking page, then people will take it as gospel as well. Just look at FoxNews.

rofl


unfortunately the rest of my post deals with this quote..
no disrespect to minorities meant at all with my previous posts, im not trying to insult anyone with any post
thats not my goal, or the goal of this forum and i know the rules
and even though the internet being a phenomena of communication still sometimes what was meant still gets interpreted differently so let me clear this up, im not insulting anyone with any of my posts
i have lots of respect for all of us and everyones thoughts here on philosophyforum and i should be more conscious of the presentation of my words and i apologize to anyone insulted by my post, that was not my intentions =/
I am and I was simply pointing out my observations
isnt it obvious how usa's current form of the democracy system is "classed" so to speak?
no, its not a classed system directly
its not written on any official documents
noone is born into a job
no, noone is specifically told what jobs they will or will not do
but the way our system works allows lots of things to be exploited
lots of loop-holes so to speak
look at nafta and the whole TTC situation, they are building a highway from mexico to usa to canada
what purpose would there be in this other than to exploit the fact that drivers from mexico can work cheaper and run the trade situation from usa to mexico to canada?
they get taken advantage of in our current system
its almost safe to say, there will always be a minority in our current system
there are more minorities doing crappy, labor intenseive jobs than anyone else this cannot be denied, and thats all i meant with my post earlier
im not trying to say that all minorities are any more or any less or anything, im not seporating their talents from anyone elses or insulting anyone or any of that
im just pointing out what i see every single day

Thanks Aristoddler and L0ck. I read your replies closely. I've got the "zeta" version of my site up at:

Civil Simian - A site to network and learn.

Come by and check it out. Maybe start a critique thread there.

Aristoddler, you are correct in assuming that I assumed the economic would follow the social. My goal is just to see if I can get people interested in thinking, as if it were a game. My goal is to trick them into learning for themselves, not because they have a duty for a piece of paper, but to con them into self enrichment out of character.

Anyway, thanks so much guys.

Thomas Albany

Hello, I just wanted to invite you guys. I finally had the site coded:

www.civilsimian.com

It has been launched, just putting some finishing touches on the delete function. Thanks

Tom,

You may be interested to learn that some Political Scientists have already carried out some of your ideas, and refined them to a sharp point. I refer you to this link by Dr. Kelleher:
William J. Kelleher, Ph.D. - by IdeaScale

You may also want to visit his Empathic Institute site where he has other highly-relevant suggestions.

Hope this reference has been helpful. Read and study what he has written and then, after reading his essays, you may want to contact him to offer your support for the effort.

Thanks so much deepthot, I'm thinking about sending them a written letter since they clearly have stopped taking electronic correspondence.

I'm sure there are many people out there who are thinking about this idea, really you are the first person to connect me to someone at the next level. Actually, I cut the legal portion of my system out, because it seemed too grandiose, but essentially I had worked out a legal system that was based on the popular ideals of the system and changed according to consensus. Of course I had all the usual retorts about mob rule, and propaganda, which of course are legitimate concerns, but, I live under the idea that we can look to history for clues, but if we resign ourselves to it as an absolute gauge, then we truly are doomed to repeat it.

I would really like to find some funding so I can move forward with my system, so this link is valuable for me. Thanks.

I have a sharp point; but it is on my head...