Acceptance/rejection God/man

@de Silentio,

Quote:

I thought about this more, and I see it this way: Jesus had one purpose in life, to save man by sacraficing himself. However, there were also benefits to our life, a major one is being a role model for the good life and another is to bring the Word in the flesh.

Then where is our disagreement? I agree that faith implies action, which is why I argued them both to be important.

Quote:

This came from Jesus: John 17:1-3 "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you. For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ."

This is a difficult issue. John presents so many issues for readers, but I think the topic would be better in it's own thread. Here I will say that the Gospel of John is quite different than the other three Gospels of the Bible. Only in this Gospel does Jesus speak at length about himself. Only in this Gospel is the notion that Jesus is the only begotten son of God given. Most scholars have rejected John as a reliable source of information about the historical Jesus. When we read the Gospels and one is clearly out of place, we pay attention to it. There must be some account for the difference.

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@dpmartin,

dpmartin wrote:

The logic when it comes to the True God. Is it is illogical to require God to be that which one thinks God should be; for the True God is the One who knows what man should be.

According to me it's illogic to demand anything from god seince there isn't any logical reason for god to exsist. If god where real, there would be a real answer to the Theodicy problem (why does bad things happen to good people), but there isn't. The most logical answer I've ever heard came from the unexpected source of a movie starring Huge Grant where he said:
Either God can't stop all evil, but he wants to, but then he isn't all-mighty
Or he doesn't want to, but can, but then he's evil himself
Or he neither can nor want to, then why would you call him god at all?
Well, atleast it was something like that. Now most belivers say something like "god gave humans free will, so he can't stop humans from hurting eachother" like, he didn't help the Jews during WWII but at the same time, the bible does say that he helped the Jews in Egypt, so I think that s*it fails to. It seems that whenever something good happens to any christian, god did it to them, but if it's bad, another human did it to them, doesn't make much sense to me.

dpmartin wrote:

Is there any thing stated in this posting that doesn't stand as True?

As I've allready banged on the source of your question, if feels stupid to bang on the rest as it falls with the source. Ofcourse, you, as you seem to be a firm beliver of god, won't accept what I just said just because you would feel so empty and so alone if you did. I know, I used to be a beliver to but while I grew up I realized more and more how much BS where in all those stories you can read in the bible, and it wasn't until I read the bible that I stoped beliving, now this might sound stupid to most people as the bible is suppose to be the source of that religion but as I acctually thought about what it said about the acts of "god", of how he acted, how he treated some people, while giving blessings to other people, whow, I just couldn't belive that anything could be that ******* evil. And after that, I started thinking about just the idea of "god" and after a while I came the the conclusion that if 16.000 kids can starve to death every day all over the world and most of them probably haven't even gotten a chance to sin yet, how the f*ck can murderers, rapists, theifs and gay people (I'm not against homosexuals at all, but the bible is..) live in what the bible call sin every day but still live full lives? Does that s*it make any sense to you? Why would we even need a police force and laws if god where out there ready to punish sinners? Think about it man, god isn't real and you know it to. Usually, religion works because people are scared to death of.. death.. They are so afraid of the fact that one day their lives are going to end, and there is no white light afterwards, and there is nothing they can do to stop it.

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@dpmartin,

Quote:

According to me it's illogic to demand anything from god seince there isn't any logical reason for god to exsist

Is there any real logic for God not to exist?

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@de Silentio,

de Silentio wrote:

Is there any real logic for God not to exist?

Yes, I just gave you a logical problem to why god can't exsist, didn't you read it all or what's this about? There's several reasons to tell you the truth. We where given a problem in school by our religion teacher and it went like this:

God is all-mighty and have no flaws
Then god must exsist, cause if he didn't it would be a flaw

Don't remember who did this but it was verry old and some semi-famous philosopher had done it I think.. Anyways he god doesn't exsist, he isn't all-mighty thus he can't have any flaws because something that doesn't exsists can't have flaws.

And then I'm sticking to the fact that 16.000kids starve to death every day in the world... That's just proves that god doesn't exsist or that you shouldn't worship him anyways because he's a evil person...

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@Wizzy,

Quote:

And then I'm sticking to the fact that 16.000kids starve to death every day in the world... That's just proves that god doesn't exsist or that you shouldn't worship him anyways because he's a evil person...

Briefly looking at these posts and discussions, it seems that the difficulty is rather... defining God. Each of us have a different perspective and many of us view God differently.

Most people refer to God like another human being and that he's allowing people to starve and evil in the world. That's funny to me because it's man that has created all of that. Man creates his world through his thoughts and perception and it's man who has created the evil.

We currently have mess because Man for one, doesn't understand MAN. Second, because Man doesn't understand what God is. Religions have defined God for each sect. Each religion views God differently. Matter of fact, God is a name man created to identify this source we know very little about.

Now that we have God nailed down to a fictitious entity in the sky or heaven, we can blame God and fear God instead of Man finding the God within himself and within his fellow man. Let's not forget that Jesus spoke in a language of science and it's the translations and the doctrines that man has decided in the Bible that many of todays believers place their entire lives in.

LOL. In my opinion, people are clueless. We have been told certain things and taught certain things and from one generation to the next, this information is passed. For most Christians, it's unimaginable that God isn't what the man of the Bible has described him to be. Religions are set in their beliefs and they all believe differently. The word is only one word... yet it's twisted by individual interpretations and perceptions. Now look at what it's done to us. Christians and Muslims fighting and killing each other. Hate is breeding hate and it's because of some screwed up mentality that we all believe in different forms of God.

Man, from all walks of life has built his identity on his physical self and the accumulation of wealth or whatever. What is man? Geesh, with all the technology we don't even know the answer to that very simple question. Most religious men believe they are their body. Their existence relies on whether or not their physical body is alive or not. If we continue to identify ourselves with things of this earth or with things outside of ourselves, we're going to keep destroying each other... I don't care if you call yourself a saint.

So, step back and take a look at a few facts. These are facts and I know their facts because I know they are. I've experienced them in my own life.

The entire universe is Energy in Motion!
Thought is energy. First is thought, then is manifestation. Nothing in the physical world can be manifested without the thought of it first.
We are our own worst enemy... I can prove it, just take a look at the news.
We blame God or others for things we create.

The above are facts. Whether or not one wants to perceive them to be facts is completely up to them but there's not a doubt in my mind.

So in essence, we are living creation in the form of energy with universal mind... divided only by our perception. Christians perceive Muslims to be wrong and visa versa. It's the perception that divides. Both create. We all create.

So, does Man control Man or does God? What is God then if we know for a fact the Universe is energy? We can have a good day or a bad day based on our thoughts. We choose to live in poverty based on our thoughts or the mindset of the country. We have all the resources to create and live abundantly once we identify our mind. Mind is eternal and that's what we are. So if God were a tree, we'd be the branches. One divided source of energy split into sexed opposites creating balance and beauty... but, that's not what mankind believes or what he's ready for.

The major difficulty with this is that many a men can currently blame God and once that's taken away, then they realize that the only one to blame is oneself. It all starts at the center and someday we'll understand this. The center is mind and it's something we as beings know very little about... because instead of living our lives to identify both the God within ourselves, creation and fellow man, we're out there trying to tell others who and how they should worship and what they are doing wrong.

I could write forever on this topic but I'll keep it to a short one. Smile

So, back to the original thread topic. Accepting God is accepting oneself and accepting the fact that we are co-creating this entire universe with our thoughts and actions. So long as we fashion our lives solely based on physical existence, we're going to continue creating evil and destruction.

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The peace that The Living God has made between Himself and the son of man, is that man is required to make peace with the Son of God, that God has given and keeps. If one does not except the Son of God, one does not accept God's peace, nor will one have peace with God.

DP, that peace can only be found within and the acceptance of it wont come until we understand what God really is. The footprints are in the sand the entire way baby. Peace isn't something we have to go seeking or reaching for. The peace of God is within everyman should he open his blinded eyes and see that the light is in all creation and the light is good. So to answer your original question...

[CENTER]Man has the Power! - and he'll discover it when he's ready
[/CENTER]

I love you all and enjoy the opportunity to write. Most people think I'm off the wall and have trouble understanding my reasoning so it's OK if some of us disagree. Smile

Peace!

1 Reply

@de Silentio,

Justin wrote:

We currently have mess because Man for one, doesn't understand MAN. Second, because Man doesn't understand what God is. Religions have defined God for each sect. Each religion views God differently.

As do, of course, people and cultures outside the context of religion, which is a major feature of modernity.

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it's the translations and the doctrines that man has decided in the Bible that many of todays believers place their entire lives in.

And that many beliefs were decided in committees, like the Council of Nycea. And that certain dogmatic beliefs are retrospectively imposed upon older doctrine -- like the Christian idea that the Torah somehow anticipates Jesus even though no Jewish perspective would ever accept that.

Quote:

Now look at what it's done to us. Christians and Muslims fighting and killing each other. Hate is breeding hate and it's because of some screwed up mentality that we all believe in different forms of God.

Of course they've been doing that in the middle east since the time of Assyrians and Hittites and Canaanites. We don't need religion to hate each other -- it's just a very easy excuse to do so.

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Most religious men believe they are their body. Their existence relies on whether or not their physical body is alive or not.

I think this is generally not true, with most religions having a dualism that understates the importance of the body (true in Eastern religions as well).

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@Justin,

Justin wrote:

I love you all and enjoy the opportunity to write. Most people think I'm off the wall and have trouble understanding my reasoning so it's OK if some of us disagree. Peace!

Great, I'll take you up on that! Wink

First of all, I didn't realy understand if you belived in god or not or if you hade your werry own idea of what "god" is but in anycase I got something to come down on Wink

Justin wrote:

We can have a good day or a bad day based on our thoughts. We choose to live in poverty based on our thoughts or the mindset of the country. We have all the resources to create and live abundantly once we identify our mind.

So you're saying that people choose to be poor? Are you out of your goddamn (thought that expression suited this discussion) mind!? I know alot of get-rich-or-die-trying people who died trying.. Although I do belive that people like to blame their problems on other people but still, it's hard for somebody in africa to get rich or even get enougth to get out of there. But still, either you're loco or you're just dumb...

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@dpmartin,

Lol. The poverty I'm speaking of is not money, it's the poverty of the mind. Once again, money doesn't make the man... contrary to popular belief.

Quote:

I think this is generally not true, with most religions having a dualism that understates the importance of the body (true in Eastern religions as well).

It's generally not thought to be true but then again, where have they built their temples? I use that very generally.

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@dpmartin,

Quote:

Yes, I just gave you a logical problem to why god can't exsist, didn't you read it all or what's this about? There's several reasons to tell you the truth.

I read the post. And from what I deduced, the logic wasn't that good. It seems like you are trying to state the problem of evil, but I don't see any straight forward logic in there. I was looking for real logic, formal logic.

Quote:

And then I'm sticking to the fact that 16.000kids starve to death every day in the world... That's just proves that god doesn't exsist or that you shouldn't worship him anyways because he's a evil person

All that proves is that your concept of God leads to an evil God or no God. If God exists eternally and has knowledge that is beyond our knowledge, who are you to say that he is not good because children starve?

1 Reply

@de Silentio,

de Silentio wrote:

I read the post. And from what I deduced, the logic wasn't that good. It seems like you are trying to state the problem of evil, but I don't see any straight forward logic in there. I was looking for real logic, formal logic.

well the Theodicy problem is one of the few things that you can beat religion on logicly and the Theodicy problem is about why there's evil in the world if there's an all-mighty god, as he could stop it. And to tell you the truth, you doesn't have any logical argument to why my logic in the Theodicy problem wheren't "real logic" as you call it, the only "fake logic" I know is the once that alot of christians use when they try to explain why there has to be a god because they often use assumptions and try to pass of the bible as proof of anything, I heared a christian say once that "That we have a 2000 year old book that people still read and talk about is proof of a miracle, made possible by god" and then I asked why she hadn't started a religion around Sun Tzu's "The art of War" sense it's estimated to be about 2500 years old.... So why don't you tell me, in "real logic" why god exsists and possibly, the answer to the Theodicy problem?

de Silentio wrote:

All that proves is that your concept of God leads to an evil God or no God. If God exists eternally and has knowledge that is beyond our knowledge, who are you to say that he is not good because children starve?

Well, it's not only really that I can use arguments straight from the bible to make atleast christianity collaps but I've found that christians loves to chance their minds on how the bible should be taken, if something isn't right or if it says something against itself, then the bible shouldn't be taken littarally but if something is moraly right in the bible, it should. Sometimes they claim that it should be taken as a poem, sometimes as fact, sometimes as a moral code and sometimes as a story of good vs. evil and when christians use this bullshit method to argue for religion, it's impossible to win because they can just change their mind as they please while if you use real FACTS about how messed up the world really is like that about starving children, they can't say that you're wrong, they can only use that some bullshit argument as you just used. It doesn't matter if god isn't real or if he's evil, just that one fact about how many kids, innocent goddamn kids, starve to death every single day in this messed up world just because they live in the wrong place, the wrong country, the wrong continent to prove that either, god isn't real or he's evil and in anyway, you shouldn't worship him! And can you tell me what good a child starving to death can do in the long run I would loooove to hear it but untill you can provide me with atleast a reasoable answer then I think you shouldn't use that "ultimate plan" bullshit towards anybody in any argument!

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@dpmartin,

Quote:

well the Theodicy problem is one of the few things that you can beat religion on logicly and the Theodicy problem is about why there's evil in the world if there's an all-mighty god, as he could stop it. And to tell you the truth, you doesn't have any logical argument to why my logic in the Theodicy problem wheren't "real logic" as you call it, the only "fake logic" I know is the once that alot of christians use when they try to explain why there has to be a god because they often use assumptions and try to pass of the bible as proof of anything

Not to be the person who corrects people, but a Theodicy is an answer to the problem of evil, not the problem of evil itself. I never used the term 'real logic'. I merely said it wasn't good logic, formal or informal. You blindly made some statements about evil and God, and quoted some statements. Logic is logic: All A are B, All B are C, Therefore All A are C. You could have also used informal logic, but I don't think your claim was adequately supported by your evidence

Furthermore, you make gross generalizations about what Christians think, and claim that they tailor what the Bible says to support their arguments, which is exactly what you would do with your 'arguments straight from the bible' that would make Christianity collapse. You defeat yourself.
[quote] So why don't you tell me, in "real logic" why god exsists and possibly, the answer to the Theodicy problem?[/quote]
You asked me to give you logical evidence that God exist, why is the burden of proof on me? I asked you to give me logical reasons to why God doesn't exist.
[quote] Well, it's not only really that I can use arguments straight from the bible to make atleast christianity collaps but I've found that christians loves to chance their minds on how the bible should be taken, if something isn't right or if it says something against itself, then the bible shouldn't be taken littarally but if something is moraly right in the bible, it should. [/quote]
Your irrateness gives no credence to your argument, and frankly it makes you look stupid. Please don't use profane language, it is unnecessary. I put together some arguments against your claims, but find that it is fruitless to argue with someone who so plainly has prejudices against what others say. If you would like my arguments, I will give them to you.

As for the problem of evil, there are plenty of Theodicies that solve the problem. I am not intelligent enough to formulate them myself, so I won't begin to act like I did, but there is a particularly good article that Alvin Plantiga made.
[quote] they can't say that you're wrong, they can only use that some bullshit argument as you just used[/quote]
Why is my argument crap? Yet again, nothing you said against my argument relates to my argument, it relates to others arguments that you are using to generalize what I think.

And by the way, since you claim that Christians have no Facts that God does exist, please give me some Facts that he doesn't exist.

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@de Silentio,

de Silentio wrote:

Not to be the person who corrects people, but a Theodicy is an answer to the problem of evil, not the problem of evil itself. I never used the term 'real logic'. I merely said it wasn't good logic, formal or informal. You blindly made some statements about evil and God, and quoted some statements. Logic is logic: All A are B, All B are C, Therefore All A are C. You could have also used informal logic, but I don't think your claim was adequately supported by your evidence

[/COLOR]
It's easy to use logic in somecases and in somecases not. I know that nomather what I say you're only gonna say something about superpowers and stuff like that and that's why my claim can't be wrong or simply ignore it as you did with the starving kids... But you might say that it's stupid and doesn't prove anything but I would still like to know if YOU have any scenario where children starving to death do any good for anything?

[quote=de Silentio]Furthermore, you make gross generalizations about what Christians think[/quote]
Well, yeah I do. Simply because I've talked and debated this subject with lots of christians, both over internett and in person and I seem to get pretty much the same answers every single time so there has to be a connection, don't you think?

[quote=de Silentio]and claim that they tailor what the Bible says to support their arguments, which is exactly what you would do with your 'arguments straight from the bible' that would make Christianity collapse. You defeat yourself.[/quote]
No I don't really, I belive that you have to interpet the bible litterarly if you're gonna read it at all since I can't belive that anybody who wrote those stories would want you to take it as representation and hidden messages as it would then only direct itself to the people who are clever egnouth to understand it, while the less clever people wouldn't understand the deeper meaning and they directed it to 'all of god's children'.

If you stop assuming that there's a life after this one, god exsists, we have a soul, heaven and hell is real and all that supernatural then think out atleast one reason to belive in it, if the bible didn't exsist, what would that argument be? I've asked several of my christian firends this and haven't gotten a real answer yet, but maybe you can give me one?

[quote=de Silentio]You asked me to give you logical evidence that God exist, why is the burden of proof on me? I asked you to give me logical reasons to why God doesn't exist.[/quote]
Sigmund Freud also said that it where up the the belivers to prove gods exsistens not the other way around Wink

It's very hard to prove that something doesn't exsist, while it's normally easy to prove that something DOES exsists, except when it comes to god apparently. I can claim that unicorns does exsist but they haven't been cought or seen yet because they have only showed themselves to a few people and them make some firend claim that they've also seen one and then say that it's up to you to prove that they doesn't exsist. How would you do that? While it's easy for me to prove that something does exsist as wood, stone, a animal, a person and so on.. Even things you can't see like different gases or such because they all have different effects on different things. While god, haven't been proven by any means yet and why do you think that is unless it's impossible because he isn't real?

[quote=de Silentio]Your irrateness gives no credence to your argument, and frankly it makes you look stupid. Please don't use profane language, it is unnecessary. I put together some arguments against your claims, but find that it is fruitless to argue with someone who so plainly has prejudices against what others say. If you would like my arguments, I will give them to you.[/quote]
Yeah I'm sorry, I've allready been warned by Justin.. Sorry..
And of course I would love to hear your arguments

[quote=de Silentio]As for the problem of evil, there are plenty of Theodicies that solve the problem. I am not intelligent enough to formulate them myself, so I won't begin to act like I did, but there is a particularly good article that Alvin Plantiga made.[/quote]
I'll see if I can find it then Wink

But just to be clear, atleast in my religions course I'm taking right now our teacher told us that Theodicie where a problem and couldn't really be answerd to the favour of god.

[quote=de Silentio]Why is my argument crap? Yet again, nothing you said against my argument relates to my argument, it relates to others arguments that you are using to generalize what I think.[/quote]
Well somehow when you talk about something that would be beyond our knowledge and understanding it's hard to argue against it.. While it's also hard to argue for it since it doesn't matter what anybody says because it's beyond our understanding right? Nobody can have right in that argument because we can't even understand what it is we are argueing about because we can't understand "the plan" right? So it's a impossible to come to any conclusion because it's beyond our understanding...
That's a type of logic I wouldn't like to call logic...Because you can't make any argument for it either..

[quote=de Silentio]And by the way, since you claim that Christians have no Facts that God does exist, please give me some Facts that he doesn't exist.[/quote]
As I said it's hard to prove that something doesn't exsist.. I can compare it to proving that something never happend in a court, and luckily, most lawsystems puts the weight on the accuser to lay out the proof instead of the other way around.. And that's the way you have see this debate to, It's gonna be hard for me to prove that something that doesn't exsist doesn't exsist, while it should be easy to prove that something that exsists exsists...
- I could bang on the bible but then you would probably just say something like "the bible is nothing more then a attempt to define god, but you can't define anything that's everything" or something like that atleast...
- But ofcourse I could also say that dinosaurs exsisted for longer ago then the bible claim that the earth was created, and then you would just say either the same argument as I just said that you probably would use about the bible or that he created them to and then killed them off because there wasn't a inteligent creature among them or something like that..
- Or I could say that there's proof of the evolution and then you would say that it doesn't matter because god created the creatures anyways..
- Or I could say that there's evil in the world and no loving god would allow that for his creatures but still, I've done that allready...
- Or i could ask you how you know that the christian god is the real one? Why can't it be buddah or some older one like Ra, Zeus or Oden?
- Or I could say that if there was a god, wouldn't he anounce his presence somehow to give people atleast a reason to belive in him?

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@dpmartin,

Philosophy from the mouths of babes.

Wizzy, everything exists in the mind of man. For some, God exists, for others God does not. We ultimately create it in mind.

Each man has his own world that he creates within himself and how he sees and views his world is merely a reflection of himself. The controlling substance is in how man perceives life. If he perceives that there is a God and he perceives that he must attend Church and be a Christian, then the man has made that his reality. Likewise with any thing else. What may not be a reality for you is a reality for someone else who believes it into existence.

You can say or argue anything you want Wizzy. The bottom line is that we are creating heaven and hell, (if that's what you want to call it) every single day. We can't change the past and have absolutely no control over anything other than the way we perceive life to be. If you perceive it to be negative, then that perception becomes your reality. Likewise, if you perceive life to be good, that will also become your reality. It all starts in the heart and soul of each and every individual human being.

Accepting or rejecting God starts with accepting or rejecting oneself. Looking out and trying to find answers will lead man in all different directions. It's starts at home and it starts within the mind of each autonomous human being... the rest is beyond our control.

Seek ye within, the Kingdom of Heaven.

1 Reply

@Justin,

Justin wrote:

Philosophy from the mouths of babes.

Wizzy, everything exists in the mind of man. For some, God exists, for others God does not. We ultimately create it in mind.

Each man has his own world that he creates within himself and how he sees and views his world is merely a reflection of himself. The controlling substance is in how man perceives life. If he perceives that there is a God and he perceives that he must attend Church and be a Christian, then the man has made that his reality. Likewise with any thing else. What may not be a reality for you is a reality for someone else who believes it into existence.

You can say or argue anything you want Wizzy. The bottom line is that we are creating heaven and hell, (if that's what you want to call it) every single day. We can't change the past and have absolutely no control over anything other than the way we perceive life to be. If you perceive it to be negative, then that perception becomes your reality. Likewise, if you perceive life to be good, that will also become your reality. It all starts in the heart and soul of each and every individual human being.

Accepting or rejecting God starts with accepting or rejecting oneself. Looking out and trying to find answers will lead man in all different directions. It's starts at home and it starts within the mind of each autonomous human being... the rest is beyond our control.

Seek ye within, the Kingdom of Heaven.

Justin I like your style man Wink

Ofcourse everyman creates his own reality, I'm not argueing with that. But at the same time, the people in our society that talks to and search after invisible men are considerd to be crazy aren't they? Every man has his reality but there are still things that are real and not, such as materia and you can't deny that. So if something exsists or not is vital not only to the sanity of men, but also how we should see the world.

I understand that the reality you talk about is not the same reality as my example with materia, but it doesn't matter when it's simple fact that some things exsist and some don't, if you truly belive in something that can't be proven to be real, then I would like to claim that you're not a man of science and not a man of logic. I don't see any real difference between cults (both suicide and non-suicide once) and other organized religions such as christianity and islam other then how they express their belives, do you?

I belive that If you do belive that somebody that's all-mighty watches over you and make sure you're safe, you won't look after yourself and personally make sure that you are safe, in more ways then just your health if you understand what I mean.

And when I said heaven and hell I wasn't talking about a living heaven or hell, I was talking about the after-life heaven or hell because that's the only one that doesn't make any sense. A living heaven or hell is up to the person to decide and choose sure, just as I belive that you can choose your mood from day to day if you wish to. I'm not talking about your poetic belives here, I'm talking about the supernatural-beyond-our-inteligence belives, the once and isn't backed by any logic what so ever. Thus I asked the question: If the religions didn't exsist, if you've never been told about anything supernatural from god to superman, what reason would you have to start beliving (for real beliving) in any god?

1 Reply

@Wizzy,

Wizzy wrote:

I understand that the reality you talk about is not the same reality as my example with materia, but it doesn't matter when it's simple fact that some things exsist and some don't, if you truly belive in something that can't be proven to be real, then I would like to claim that you're not a man of science and not a man of logic. I don't see any real difference between cults (both suicide and non-suicide once) and other organized religions such as christianity and islam other then how they express their belives, do you?

Nope. I'm with you on this. It's how they express their beliefs that becomes more of an issue. Instead of starting where people are and finding the common ground in all these things, people want to focus on the differences and then try to change the things they don't like. Most people start with where they expect others to be and when that happens, we end up fighting over who's right and who's wrong. It's at this point we've actually lost sight of the things we have in common and the focal point is turned towards the things we don't have in common.

Wizzy wrote:

I belive that If you do belive that somebody that's all-mighty watches over you and make sure you're safe, you won't look after yourself and personally make sure that you are safe, in more ways then just your health if you understand what I mean.

I understand what you mean. That's the beauty of life... discovering what it really is. Our little time here in the physical sense of body is means very little in the spectrum of eternity. Our bodies are going to die just as others have died and gone before us. Eternally however, there is no death of the spirit or the energy which balances the entire Universe. I personally believe that man creates deities and if there were none, he'd create them anyways. Someone to keep us safe. Having greater powers out there is space relieves man of some of the accountability for his own thoughts and actions and provides a source that can be blamed or looked up to so to save us. Man would create it either way because physical man is seriously weak... however we are becoming more and more enlightened to the knowledge that when man works in harmony and balance together, they accomplish much more... and there's more accountability.

Wizzy wrote:

And when I said heaven and hell I wasn't talking about a living heaven or hell, I was talking about the after-life heaven or hell because that's the only one that doesn't make any sense. A living heaven or hell is up to the person to decide and choose sure, just as I belive that you can choose your mood from day to day if you wish to. I'm not talking about your poetic belives here, I'm talking about the supernatural-beyond-our-inteligence belives, the once and isn't backed by any logic what so ever. Thus I asked the question: If the religions didn't exsist, if you've never been told about anything supernatural from god to superman, what reason would you have to start beliving (for real beliving) in any god?

Wizzy, you've been told there's an after-life of heaven or hell because your ancestors told their ancestors and their ancestors and all else. That comes back to your perception. This perception on this is currently controlled by things that you have learned outside of yourself and have been given or passed down through the centuries. This perception will literally create the ceiling above us. We are the living, creating, breathing and dieing force of this supernatural force you've mentioned. We are parts of one whole. It's not beyond our intelligence, it is our intelligence.

Back in the 60s and 70s if you'd have told someone that all the knowledge of mankind could fit in the palm of one man's hand, they'd have told you it's ridiculously impossible. Likewise if someone would have said that there will be a time when a man in the US can perform open-heart surgery successfully on a patient in China... they would have said you were crazy and it's impossible. At one time or other all of what's happening today was impossible and could never be done. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Man will someday realize the inherent genius within and cease building walls and edifices to separate humanity from the supernatural force present in all creation. Until that time, it's impossible if we believe it is.

What a wonderful age to grow up and evolve in.

1 Reply

@Justin,

Justin wrote:

Nope. I'm with you on this. It's how they express their beliefs that becomes more of an issue. Instead of starting where people are and finding the common ground in all these things, people want to focus on the differences and then try to change the things they don't like. Most people start with where they expect others to be and when that happens, we end up fighting over who's right and who's wrong. It's at this point we've actually lost sight of the things we have in common and the focal point is turned towards the things we don't have in common.

As you said: I'm with you on this, when I read it i got to thinking of a song by "Less Than Jake" called "All my best friends are meatheads" and the lyrics goes as this:
Do you know about her strength in convictions
or how she puts all her faith in religion.
Did we take the time to really discover,
how little we know about each other.
As I said on my site man, racism is wrong but at the same time you have to be able to complain about anything about anybody without that person taking to to hard. People have to be able to get offended without passing laws and stuff like that to forbid it.. Thought you shouldn't be able to express hate violently... (god it feels like I miss-spell all the time..)

Justin wrote:

I understand what you mean. That's the beauty of life... discovering what it really is. Our little time here in the physical sense of body is means very little in the spectrum of eternity. Our bodies are going to die just as others have died and gone before us. Eternally however, there is no death of the spirit or the energy which balances the entire Universe. I personally believe that man creates deities and if there were none, he'd create them anyways. Someone to keep us safe. Having greater powers out there is space relieves man of some of the accountability for his own thoughts and actions and provides a source that can be blamed or looked up to so to save us. Man would create it either way because physical man is seriously weak... however we are becoming more and more enlightened to the knowledge that when man works in harmony and balance together, they accomplish much more... and there's more accountability.

It's hard to understand if you're a beliver or not, not that it matter to much. But anyways I belive your basic thought about the function of the world seems to be reasonable but I don't really agree with what you said about what you said about there not beeing death in spirit and energy unless you mean in a non-supernatural way such as live on as energy amongs the once that you have tuched in life, then I can agree with you. And about dreaming up somebody that's greater then you that can guard and protect you, yes, nomather what people would still dream up some kind of god just from their fear for the real world as it is normally brutal and ruthless but also for the basic things that humans can't understand. We are smart egnouth to know that we're smart but not smart egnouth to know everything and that's a shame..

Justin wrote:

Wizzy, you've been told there's an after-life of heaven or hell because your ancestors told their ancestors and their ancestors and all else. That comes back to your perception. This perception on this is currently controlled by things that you have learned outside of yourself and have been given or passed down through the centuries. This perception will literally create the ceiling above us. We are the living, creating, breathing and dieing force of this supernatural force you've mentioned. We are parts of one whole. It's not beyond our intelligence, it is our intelligence.

Ofcourse it's because we've been told that there's after-life heaven and hell, I personally don't belive in it as I think I've made pretty clear that I don't. And I agree, we have to stop seeing the world as "us and them", there isn't any "them", just an "us"..

Justin wrote:

Back in the 60s and 70s if you'd have told someone that all the knowledge of mankind could fit in the palm of one man's hand, they'd have told you it's ridiculously impossible. Likewise if someone would have said that there will be a time when a man in the US can perform open-heart surgery successfully on a patient in China... they would have said you were crazy and it's impossible. At one time or other all of what's happening today was impossible and could never be done. Do you see where I'm going with this?

Ofcourse I know what you're getting at, that what we know today as impossible might not be tomorrow and I agree, we reach new hights constantly and people who comment on something that's impossible are often proven wrong but at the same time, if you don't bet something you can't win anything Wink

Justin wrote:

What a wonderful age to grow up and evolve in.

Ofcourse, but so has most previous once been to, what everybody need is something larger then themselves to live, fight and possibly die for, that's how you become a part of history and rememberd for a long time forward and that's atleast my goal in life Wink

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