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governing with an iron fist;democracy & dictatorship

 
 
Reply Sat 7 Oct, 2006 09:04 am
Is the style of governmantship universal or should it always be diverse? What determines a suited style in a particular culture. The governments of the west would have us believe that democracy is the only way. We have sufferd many revolutions to come to this conclusion that 'for the people, by the people' is the correct way. England since Cromwell sporned what is reputed to be the original democracy, though to day it is more like an electorial dictatorship, and with the birth of the European parliament it is an unelected dictatorship and getting worse. The US, with their constant campaining under the banner of democracy, is actually controlled by an elite few bourguor richmen, so is the premise of democracy a falisy which is long dead like the noble founders of it? The revolutions that created it overthrew Kings and Queens, but I think they have some how returned!

Iraq has taken the brunt of this 'spreading democracy' campaign but unlike the people of the west they are not under the illusion of its true meaning, so they have many dictatorship, which to 'our' anoiance actually suits them very well. These people want an inspirational leader to control them and tell them what to do! Unfortunatly it happened to be a tyrant at this time who miss used his authority. Though I would stress that it is no more than what the supposed 'good guys' have been world leaders in, for a long time (how do you think they are the super powers in the first place). I would recommend ferther reading of William Blums' ROGUE STATE or any Noam Chomski book on the related topic for anyboby who may doubt this statment.

So the question is;what sort of government suits a particular type of culture? it is important to recognise the 'liberty' of a people according to their needs, in order to maintain the structure and (illusion of) freedom.
Otherwise it could lead to a social sence of imprisonment like 'sheep' being herded by the 'masters'. Thus resulting in discontent, imbalances of the social formalities that hold it together and eventually as always......revolution!
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perplexity
 
  1  
Reply Sat 7 Oct, 2006 09:58 am
@pilgrimshost,
pilgrimshost wrote:

So the question is;what sort of government suits a particular type of culture? it is important to recognise the 'liberty' of a people according to their needs, in order to maintain the structure and (illusion of) freedom.


It is a remarkable fact that the government of the "Land of the Free" imprisons more of its population than any other, while something like half of the total of the military spending on Planet Earth is dedicated to defend this somewhat dubious version of freedom, for the suppsed benefit of a mere four percent or so of the global population.

What does it tell us about them?

Government meets a need. Just as if you'd have to reinvent the motor vehicle from scrratch you'd end up with something of the same sort of shape and size, it is equally unlikely that a political revolution is going to end up in the long run with something with square wheels, so to speak.

Why do politicians tell lies to get elected?

Because the truth is not so popular.

As it always was, so it shall be.

-- RH.
0 Replies
 
cut2thepoint
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 11:50 am
@pilgrimshost,
If we are living in a illusion of freedom as you put it please tell us what is a true freedom?
And you say what goverment suites a type of cultre what politics would suite a multicultral society then? I accept not all is well with our current system but would you rather be living under real dictatorship?

I am outraged at this quote 'the US is actually controlled by an elite few bourguor richmen' is it??????????? or is it controled by the people who vote for potential leaders?. I would listen if you said in you view this is the case, but you have not you claim it as a fact. And give us no information to back it up. Sorry if it seems I am picking holes but this statement hit me for six!

And is it the case that people living under dictatorship 'suites them' as you put it. well if that it the case why are record numbers of people trying to escape these oppressive dictators?. Do these people want AN 'inspirational' leader? OR IS IT THE CASE THAT THEY HAVE NO CHOICE!

I feel us humans always think the grass is greener on the other side but when we get there we find out its not. Is it the case that if you want to make it in life you best chance is in the west? or have we taken our lives hear for granted.
pilgrimshost
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Nov, 2006 02:44 pm
@cut2thepoint,
''If we are living in a illusion of freedom as you put it please tell us what is a true freedom?'' Quote by CUT2THEPOINT

True freedom is being born and not being told by someone else that you have to work for your whole life, pay taxes at the rate they set, buy a house, buy food, pay for water and buy a passport to cross land on a world that is as much yours as anyone elses. We are born
into a world more or less like the 'people pods' in the 'matrix'. Our lives are no more than componants to keep the world as we are forced to know it. Everything Ive listed above is ours by right. If there is a problem with aquiring any of it then its someones fault and shouldnt be that way.

''And you say what goverment suites a type of cultre what politics would suite a multicultral society then?'' Quote by CUT2THEPOINT

The people of the land chose what government style suites them. Multiculturalism has been around for thousands of years, but its only in the reasent years political correctness and ultra leftwing views in politics have change the way it is handled in the law. Only in the west would a country allow a foreign culture influence its laws, to be truthful the ethnic minorities country of origin would never allow such a thing ever to happen. When Migrants came to England hundreds of years ago and from the common wealth the people embraced British law and got on with their lives. The reason Indians came here in the first place was because they liked the British way of life, I know this to be true because for one they could have moved to the middle east or east africa where they would have made more money. Two, my Girlfriend is half Indian, as it goes, and thats what her Granddad said.:cool:

''I am outraged at this quote 'the US is actually controlled by an elite few bourguor richmen' is it??????????? or is it controled by the people who vote for potential leaders?.'' Quote by CUT2THEPOINT

Ever heard of the 'Builderberg Group', they select who is to be in the power positions and policies ect. Not to mention the 'stone masions'. The Federal reserve is not owned by the government of the US but the Rockafella family. All the major Enterprises and companies have strong ties and links in Government which would be illigal in Britain, ie.Dick Chaney-oil. The entire US is based on economic power, and a few families are powerful enough to have their fingers in it all. These same families run for President. Saudi Arabia has $1 trillion invested annualy into the US. The US only makes $5 trillion a year! So why do you think G.BUSH and G.W.BUSH have alliances with them, political and personal? It doesnt really matter who the people vote for, G.W.BUSH wasnt elected for president first time around, the federal courts ruled in his favour regardless. A biased influence there I would say.

''And is it the case that people living under dictatorship 'suites them' as you put it. well if that it the case why are record numbers of people trying to escape these oppressive dictators?. Do these people want AN 'inspirational' leader? OR IS IT THE CASE THAT THEY HAVE NO CHOICE!'' Quote by CUT2THEPOINT


Record numbers flee from dictatorships for a number of reasons, one is economic, two would be persicution for a good reason, three is because they are criminals running from capital punishment, four is when they dont like the ragime change! Cultures in the east and africa prefer to have one inspirational leader as culturlly this is what they've had for thousands of years and it is usually linked to religious preferences. Such as a 'MULLA' or sultan or overlord of an arab tribe, nothing wrong with this, its just like Emporers or Kings in the west which served us well when we had it. Democracy is not what they want or it would be what they have; English civil war, French revolution, American independance ect.

''I accept not all is well with our current system but would you rather be living under real dictatorship?'' Quote by CUT2THEPOINT

I wouldnt want to live in a dictatorship (EU?) as Britain has had many great democratic leaders (Churchill, Thatcher).

''Is it the case that if you want to make it in life you best chance is in the west?'' Quote by CUT2THEPOINT

I have heared it said, 'if you cant make it in England, then you cant make it anywhere in the world'. I would say this is quite true, but not exclusivly as people are succesful in all countries regardless.
cut2thepoint
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 05:25 am
@pilgrimshost,
I am a brittish borne Indian and let me tell you one thing, my family came to britain because of the terrible state the real impirialists left my mother nation! my great great gran mother was brutaly raped by 'BRITTISH IMPERIALISTS' and the pakistan state was formed by britain leting them have it. And now we are at constant threat of nuclear attack.And your whining about american foreign policy!

We came to britain because us, along with the americans had to rescue your batterd army, and after the war we had to fill your workforce. lets get the facts out in the open. Of course britain offerd us a better life but god didn't we pay the price in bloodshed to get that. And even when we did come we was not accepted, and soon found out that "GREAT BRITAIN" was not so great after all as we sufferd terrible racism and hardship to get where we are today. I gave it a chance to converse with you but you base everything on an opinion and dont really explain what you say I wish you would as it would make things more interesting. Its a great worry to be honest. You have just repeated what you wrote to begin with but with just a little bit more opinion thrown in. I also asked you what is your alternative to the current political system that gives us an 'illusion' of freedom as you put it. and your reply was something out of a childs book. I did hope you wouldnt define freedom alone as we can all do that but you did ha ha. I had hoped you would provide some sort of an alternative as its all such an illusion.

Look nothing is for free in this world we have to work to get what we need and some of us take pride in that.I assume from what you have wrote you are just an angry rebel to traped or to scared to do anything about it. You say you have freinds in the facist BNP and the NF, well maybe its a reflection of yourself.

Even if the world was as you want it not everybody would be happy so be thankfull you live in the west and america is top dog at the moment it could be far more worse. Oh and one more thing you say about having to need a passport to cross land well dont you realise we need these systems in place or the world would be in chaos!!!!! Are you honestly saying you cant see this? Oh we have to pay for food and work, ok lets go back to the old system of fighting for what we want and just taking what we need if we have the biggest army. You should become a viking.

The state of the world and the future of humanity depends on what each generation does. I feel you would like to knock us back to the stone age.
pilgrimshost
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Nov, 2006 01:18 pm
@cut2thepoint,
My posts have sufficiant and clear references to answer the questions posed by you, if you are not familiar with anything Ive stated then I suggest you do some research. You always make it clear full examples bore you so I took your advice and cut to the point!

''us, along with the americans had to rescue your batterd army, and after the war we had to fill your workforce.'' Quote CUT2THEPOINT

This is completly wrong, 1940-The Battle of Britain successfully secured our land against the Nazis perminantly putting on hold operation Sealion. And the defiance of the British people dueing the Blitz only stands as a testament to our greatness in the face of terror. The US didnt want to get involved in the war ''its not our problem, and doesnt concern the free people of the united states''-a quote from a congressman when Sir Winston Church visited the US trying to form an alliance, warning of the future of NAZI expantion. Though President Rosevelt did want to, he was over-ruled by the senate unanimously. The British continued with their war, alone, at home, in comando raides on Nazi facillities, Airbourne attacks, in North Africa and around the world, not to mention at sea. It wasnt until 1941, December, that Japan decleared war on the US and forced them into the war-proving Sir Churchill to be right. The British went on to command many theaters of warfare espeacialy in North Africa where Lord Montgomery lead British forces against the mighty mechanised Panser devisions of Field Marshal Rommel and defieted him leading to the fall of crete and eventually the liberation of Italy from Nazi influence. Many other battles and operations occured led and won souly by British forces which show they were never beaten. If your refering to Dunkirk, it was just an expeditionary force who went to help the french, and alone to uphold the Treaty of Versialle, alone.

The Indian army were and are today an afficiant and fine fighting force with a warriors heart. They earned more VCs in history than any other country because of this.But they were at the time the British army themselves, with British Officers, with British training, so it was actually their proper roll under the British crown.

To refer to the replenishing of the workforce as though it is a shame on Britain is wrong as it belittles the sacrifice and hard work made by the British people not only to make Britain great but the lives they lost to fight, at home and away against the tyrany of the Nazis. Respect of this is important.

'the pakistan state was formed by britain leting them have it. And now we are at constant threat of nuclear attack' Quote CUT2THEPOINT

Get your history book out. The ruling class of India didnt want the British to give India independance, as they enjoyed the Emperal connections, the soverignity and control over the masses. Gandi however had other plans, he campaigned for this right to self rule and continually patitioned the British Government to do this. Churchill said it was a bad idea (he may have had a point, he always did). When eventually it came, the majority muslim population layed claim to having their own piece of the land to rule. As they migrated north and the hindus, sikhs and christians moved south millions were slaughtered by each other, creating the begining of the hatred for each other. Yes the Pakistanis do threaten India with nukes, but so do India to Pakistan. Kashmir anyone? The west are in the same situation as India and Pakistan we have nukes pointing at us aswell (Russia and China) but we do the same to them! So whats your point?

'and soon found out that "GREAT BRITAIN" was not so great after all as we sufferd terrible racism and hardship to get where we are today' Quote CUT2THEPOINT

If you think Britain isnt Great based on your experiances of 'suffering terrible racism and hardship' then Im sorry for this. Though I will add that I can list many other countries that are far worse than here, try appartide in south Africa, or russia,or even the US.
This country is so tollarent and left wing in its approach to cultural relations that its hard to see any proof of this. I live in a typical English town, with many cultual differences, and I never see race as an issue anywhere. You make it sound like the KKK run your naighbourhood watch.

'the terrible state the real impirialists left my mother nation!' Quote CUT2THEPOINT

My sympathy for any harm done to you or your family, and I agree that Imperialism is a cruel thing. To tell you what the reasons were for your family to come to England and what you suffered in the process is not my place to do so, I may just suggest possible aspects to the debate. India has an awesome herritage, achievments on every intellectual level and masters of medical and mathamatical advancment (they invented the concept of 'zero'). But I will say I dont agree with the above quote. India has a caste system, and millions of people are illiterate, along with a lack of general knowledge conserning the spread of disease (Ganges, feeding of rats in worship of the particular gods, poverty ect). Britain has give Indians here the oppotunity of individualism back in their home land. Eduction, and other institutions has enabled millions to become what they would not have been without Britain. Need I say more?

'I also asked you what is your alternative to the current political system that gives us an 'illusion' of freedom as you put it.' Quote CUT2THEPOINT

This country is not free becuase of the government imposing draconian laws. For example, we can be arrested just so the police can aquire our personal information and DNA-fact. It is a criminal offence to protest anywhere without applying for permission from the police first. The police can detain anybody they want without evidence for as long as they want. Soon its going to be illigal to make any kind of political statment particuly on blogs. To oppose these laws and others like it you can be arrested under the terrorism act. All public enquiries are to be controlled by the Government and the minister of that department of the day are allowed to sensor and withdraw anything from it, all this is fact! What did we fight the Nazis for? And then theirs the issues with 'freedom of speach' and when we are told we cant speak, and the passing of laws and legislations without being given the vote that my ancestors forght for? Hence the 'illusion'.

I could comment on other statments you have made but this is more than enough, for now!
0 Replies
 
chad3006
 
  1  
Reply Wed 7 Feb, 2007 08:32 pm
@pilgrimshost,
I'm not aware of any government (outside of theoretical forms) that is not authoritarian in nature. The very act of organizing a government creates an authoritarian power. Electra's post on "Free Sovereigns" is as good at describing the alternative to authoritarian power as anything I've seen.
0 Replies
 
Leaf phil
 
  1  
Reply Tue 29 Jan, 2008 05:16 pm
@pilgrimshost,
pilgrimshost wrote:
I wouldnt want to live in a dictatorship (EU?)


I would like to pick a little on this, pilgrimshost. Your definitions of dictatorship and democracy are a little fluid and not quite along the established lines - but really; do you know what the EU is and what it does today?

Facts are that the EU Commission (by many seen as the heartland of the EU, and probably the biggest lump of bureaucracy in the EU) operates with a minimum of employees - appox. 24 0000 -to handle affairs for a total population of nearly half a billion. A dictatorship, on the other hand, has a large amount of people more or less employed to take care of the oppression, persecution, murders, frauds, beatings, etc. Hardly every-day life in the EU...

If I may suppose that you mean that the EU dictates what the member states are supposed to do in certain cases (correct me if I'm wrong), then may I point out that the member states decided - by the ballot - whether to join or not. Since the member states are democracies, which by your standards doesn't mean much, the majority decides. And apparently a majority in the EU member states have decided to join and be members of the EU. Otherwise, according to you, if the populations were dissatisfied, we would have had a revolution...right?

The bottom line for me is that not many people realize what the EU is today - it is a collaboration between members states that attempt to harmonize legislation on a lot of complicated matters. If we did not have this harmonization process, trade would be tedious, travelling and studying abroad would be tedious, and we would probably not be as well off as we are today.
0 Replies
 
Rasputini
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Apr, 2008 11:38 am
@pilgrimshost,
I think the most important aspect of democracy has been completely missed here. The current systems of democracy out there are not TRUE democracies; they are representative democracies. So naturally it will be ruled by a handful of elites that have the disposible resources to run for office. However, the way in which we in the west have set up our democracies demands the government to be responsible. If the members of the government do not fulfill society's wants/needs, the are quickly ousted. I'm not very familiar with my canadian history, or my political history, but I am aware that after some event that went wrong, the party in power of the time (who i believe might have had a majority) was left with 2 seats in the House of Commons (which has 308). The government has to maintain a certain level of responsible government if it expects to stay in power. I'm not quite sure how it is in the States, but I know in here in Canada, if you're unhappy about something, or want your deligate to vote a certain way, you can inform your Member of Parliament, and they'll represent the masses within their riding.

To suggest that we are under a dictatorship dressed up as a democracy because it is run by a small percentage of the population is blind to the fact that we're not a direct democracy. That would be inefficient and tedious.
0 Replies
 
GoshisDead
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Apr, 2008 12:10 pm
@pilgrimshost,
Amen Rasputini:
historically and prehistorically, true democracy/egalitarianism has only been successful in band societies of 200 people or less, and then the concept of power differential and authority are very fluid and subject to cults of personality, charisma, power, and resource control.
0 Replies
 
 

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