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Manufacturing Debt: The Decline Of America

 
 
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 10:56 am
The industrial revolution basically began in the middle of the nineteenth century. This revolution would later define which nations were successful and which nations were poor or later to be called 'third world' nations.


Today, in this era of 'globalizaation' the U.S. manufacturing base is roughly 12% of the entire U.S. economy. This is roughly the same percentage of the Asian economies of the 1950's. Essentially, the American manufacturing base is operating at the level of a 'developiong' nation or a third world economy.

So, why are the American people so completely over their heads in debt today? And why do the American's leaders believe that going even deeper into debt is the solution to our economic woes?

My opinion is that there is no imaginable way for the Americans to extricate themselves from this debt trap. The proverbial rubber is going to meet the road in the form of a substantial reduction in the standard of living of the American people and this will be happening sooner rather than later.

One of the central issues is the fact that the American people consume far more than they produce. And in this era of globalization there is no conceivable means whereby the Americans could ever increase production relative to consumption. This is because we have lost the ability to manufacture goods that are competitive on the world market.

It is astonoshing and mind boggling to me that not only aren't Americans aware of the fact that the Japanese, and the Asians in general, are so far advanced compared to the Americans, but the Americans don't even seem to care or to trouble themselves over this fact! This apathy on the part of Americans is apocalyptic.

The apocalypse of apathy, this is how I would descibe the impending decline of the United States.
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Psycobabble
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 07:01 pm
@Pythagorean,
Pythagorean;118178 wrote:

So, why are the American people so completely over their heads in debt today? And why do the American's leaders believe that going even deeper into debt is the solution to our economic woes?


My erstwhile mathematician this is my opinion on why we (the first world) have moved from a manufacturing to a service based economy and the growth in debt we are burdened with. It is a nutshell overview.

The industrial revolution gave us prosperity over the rest of the world in a period of two hundred years. We have been deprived of that prosperity without a shot being fired in just forty. The "money" has always had labour issues and the unions have always had wage and condition issues. But hey lived comfortably side by side because technology gave the "money" cost effective volume driven returns. As the technology moved further forward and the factory floors of the fifties gave way to further rationalization from the sixties onward the "money" became greedier as their wealth was enhanced. So a factory floor that employed thousands now only required hundreds. The unions in the late sixties and seventies ran international campaigns to further the wages and conditions of the remaining workers citing the growth in production and return on investment that the "money" was now reaping as the social justification for those wage and condition claims.

At some point in the late sixties and early seventies the "money" conspired with the U.N Development Organization, the I.M.F., and the World Bank to rid themselves of the troublesome unions with the goal being the maximization of profits. The story was painted to the first world nations (governments for the people who were controlled by the "money") that third world nations needed a hand, to share the prosperity of the new age and the first conspiratorial tool used was the Lima Protocol (a link is supplied)

The Lima Protocol was the foundation that seen the demise of manufacturing in the first world. I will example what this traitorous agreement signed by our traitorous first world politicians has visited on Australia as an example. We were ordered to no longer manufacture goods at home. We were told to grow food, but not to process it as that would be done in a more cost effective climate in the second and third worlds. We were ordered to dig up minerals and ore but no to value add to it as this would be done in the same cost effective countries overseas and the trade off would be a prosperous "whole" world that would engender security for our following generations.

The evident truth is that the prosperity to the third world is in the hands of the few and the poor sods of that nation went from agrarian slaves to factory slaves. The shambles of corrupt governments that run these countries are easily manipulated by the "money" and the fooking U.N. who gave some humanistic credibility to the exercise are as busy as ever helping the plebs of these nations who still live like shat. Who gained, the poor? no, the first world, no.....only the money gained.

That my friend is why our kids have McDonalds as a career path...we have been fooked.

The Lima Declaration ---- an overview
0 Replies
 
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 08:18 pm
@Pythagorean,
If you demean a person in the process of exploiting him for profit, no amount of wages will be enough... But usually wages are not enough, and are driven lower...Taxes on labor instead of on property makes property expensive and labor cheap, and if you want to have any thing decent that you can tell anyone to get to hell off of, you have to pay usury...
Psycobabble
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 08:31 pm
@Fido,
Fido;118383 wrote:
If you demean a person in the process of exploiting him for profit, no amount of wages will be enough... But usually wages are not enough, and are driven lower...Taxes on labor instead of on property makes property expensive and labor cheap, and if you want to have any thing decent that you can tell anyone to get to hell off of, you have to pay usury...


Yes Fido, but do you accept my conspiratorial view on the premise as to why the States and all first world nations are in the poop.
Fido
 
  1  
Reply Thu 7 Jan, 2010 08:42 pm
@Psycobabble,
Psycobabble;118389 wrote:
Yes Fido, but do you accept my conspiratorial view on the premise as to why the States and all first world nations are in the poop.

They no shet conspire to rob us of our rights and force us into debt...The financial industry accounted for 90% of the profits before the election...Only 20% of the people were involved in actual production and they accounted for 80% of the exports... We are become a nation of burger flippers and pickle puteroners...They take too much out of this people....So people have to part with the capital built up by generations just to get by...Interest is paid on everything...The society cannot get by without it...There is no explaination except that it has been forced on the people, and the government has helped with that...

Have you ever read Das Capital...It really is a very good read, lots of history and facts...
Psycobabble
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 05:21 am
@Fido,
Fido;118395 wrote:
Have you ever read Das Capital...It really is a very good read, lots of history and facts...


Fido it was an early read for me as my formative years were spent in a socialist environment. Marx and Engels were probably the first to understand the burgeoning world economy and the nexus between the work force and the employers. I recall Marx's premise that the unbridled growth of commerce could not be directed or controlled by an individual, reading this some hundred years after publication I thought poor Karl if he could be here now he would freak. He would not believe that the world economy could be directed globally by a few, but the U.N and I.M.F. were unimaginable vehicles to him back then. He understood the conspiracy of finance but I am certain that he could not envisage the controlled totality of the world financial system, back in his day he had the Rothschild's to contend with and that was about it.

There s a text from the seventies called "The Debt Trap" by Cheryl Payer that painted the picture of international finances and the control that the "money" had over all nations and that text was more pertinent to me than Das Kapital. But in saying this I also recall the words of Winston Churchill who said "If a man is not a socialist in his teens he has no heart, and if he is not a capitalist in his maturity he has no brains"....sad but true, there is no way but the system if you want to survive economically. The only protection our individual markets had was tariffs, but they took the sovereignty of nations away with the Lima Protocol and forced us to drop all protection from individual economies.
Pythagorean
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 01:45 pm
@Psycobabble,
I don't believe that the economic problems are caused by a conspiracy. What I look for in analyzing the problem is the historical factors such as the great opening up of free trade in America beginning in the late 1970's and accelerating thereafter. The fact is that Japan is a technologically superior nation than is the United States and this can quite reasonably be traced back to the incredible trade deficits the U.S. has been running with Japan. It is a simple story in this respect.

But ultimately, the problem is a cultural and historical one. The U.S. has grown too fat, too comfortable, too corrupt etc. The value of money has been grossly distorted. There is no sound context. Money is not treated as precious. The gold standard can be used as an important way to gain perspective.

Quite frankly, the Western world, its leaders and its peoples, have gone mad - they are literally insane, like on hard drugs, hard porn, hard psychological non-sense. Money is treated like electronic bits and bytes, without respect to the centuries of scientific and mathematical thinking that went into it to make it possible.

And when the stuff hits the fan there will be no handy solutions. When the American standard of living collapses there may be violent revolution. I see a future of even more chaos than we have today.
Psycobabble
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 05:19 pm
@Pythagorean,
Pythagorean;118556 wrote:
I don't believe that the economic problems are caused by a conspiracy. What I look for in analyzing the problem is the historical factors such as the great opening up of free trade in America beginning in the late 1970's and accelerating thereafter.



Pythagorean with the greatest respect you do not want to know the truth. The free trade agreements you speak of (GATT) are the spawn of the Lima Protocol that I directed you to (which obviously you did not look into and the States was a signatory to from the seventies) that if studied in it's entirety you would see lays the foundation to the movement of production from the first world to the second and third worlds. Protectionism is also dismantled in that agreement hence the free trade you bleat about.

Quote:
The fact is that Japan is a technologically superior nation than is the United States and this can quite reasonably be traced back to the incredible trade deficits the U.S. has been running with Japan. It is a simple story in this respect.


Here again you exhibit your naivety of the facts. Japan was a great copier of technology and without Silicon Valley they would still be making rice cakes and noodles. Because the society was compliant and accepted direction their production rates and the cost effectiveness of their production swamped the manufacturing bases of the first world with goods at a price that consumers in the west took advantage of in comparison to locally produced products. This flow of capital and the technological revolution of the period did the rest.

Quote:
But ultimately, the problem is a cultural and historical one. The U.S. has grown too fat, too comfortable, too corrupt etc. The value of money has been grossly distorted. There is no sound context. Money is not treated as precious. The gold standard can be used as an important way to gain perspective.


That's it is it?....It is the fault of the plebs.:brickwall: The gold standard does not take into account the consumerism that is needed for growth in our modern economies to keep us all in work and the production centers viable. We invented a false wealth called credit and credit dismantled the gold standard because it is needed by the corporates to continue a flow of products to the market. We can not afford it but they sell it to us anyway, without credit the tv would be the price of a car, and the car the price of a cruise liner.

Quote:
Quite frankly, the Western world, its leaders and its peoples, have gone mad - they are literally insane, like on hard drugs, hard porn, hard psychological non-sense. Money is treated like electronic bits and bytes, without respect to the centuries of scientific and mathematical thinking that went into it to make it possible.


How old are you?...serious question....

Quote:
And when the stuff hits the fan there will be no handy solutions. When the American standard of living collapses there may be violent revolution. I see a future of even more chaos than we have today.


Thank you Nostradamus, have you told any one of this revelation?
When the shoot hits the fan indeed,...it has hit and is being circulated as we speak. Social dysfunction comes from not having a viable economy; it is not the cause of it.

A comment on your thoughts.....:Not-Impressed:

Sorry about the ad homs, but your thoughts deserve it.
Pythagorean
 
  1  
Reply Fri 8 Jan, 2010 08:18 pm
@Psycobabble,
Psycobabble;118662 wrote:
Pythagorean with the greatest respect you do not want to know the truth. The free trade agreements you speak of (GATT) are the spawn of the Lima Protocol that I directed you to (which obviously you did not look into and the States was a signatory to from the seventies) that if studied in it's entirety you would see lays the foundation to the movement of production from the first world to the second and third worlds. Protectionism is also dismantled in that agreement hence the free trade you bleat about.


You are right. I haven't looked into the Lima Protocol as of yet. However, I will do the reading very soon. In the meantime I will say that it would come as no surprise to discover that the U.S. was a signatory of such an agreement. But this does not thereby nullify the U.S. Constitution which forbids relinquishing of U.S. sovereignty. Free trade was a well publicized, overt political policy in the United States, whose most famous proponent was president Ronald Reagan and his Republican followers. Without the hard sell by these politicians free trade, the 'dumping' of Japanese and Asians manufactures, would have been stopped.

My question to you would be: What are the motives of these conspirators? What were the reasons for this intentional redistribution of industry? I understand the democratic socialism of the Europeans pretty well. I also understand the ideological and political forces which drive the parties in the States. I believe I have a sound grasp of U.S. culture, broadly speaking. The greatest ideological movement in the West today is the pro-immigration, multicultural, 'diversity', liberal-leftist movement. The white man has lost the primal sense of his identity, or rather he defers to the non-whites to the extent of his own suicide. But as far as conspiracies are concerned, I need to know the ideological makeup of the parties involved and you have not offered this information as of yet. What was the motivation for the Lima Protocol? Who are these conspirators?



[quote]Here again you exhibit your naivety of the facts. Japan was a great copier of technology and without Silicon Valley they would still be making rice cakes and noodles. Because the society was compliant and accepted direction their production rates and the cost effectiveness of their production swamped the manufacturing bases of the first world with goods at a price that consumers in the west took advantage of in comparison to locally produced products. This flow of capital and the technological revolution of the period did the rest.[/quote]

Dear Psychobabble, I never said the Japanese and the Asians didn't copy science and technology from the West. They did copy. They could not have created what they have without copying. But the fact remains today, that as far as high end manufacturing they are filthy rich and the entire world is dependent upon their manufacturing. Japan is today, the most advanced society and there is no catching them up. Their vast, high tech manufacturing production is as good if not better than gold. The Asians save and produce, the Americans consume and spend. The Chineese, for example, will never ever carry credit cards, they will always produce, manufacture and save.




[quote]That's it is it?....It is the fault of the plebs.:brickwall: The gold standard does not take into account the consumerism that is needed for growth in our modern economies to keep us all in work and the production centers viable. We invented a false wealth called credit and credit dismantled the gold standard because it is needed by the corporates to continue a flow of products to the market. We can not afford it but they sell it to us anyway, without credit the tv would be the price of a car, and the car the price of a cruise liner.[/quote]


The basic problem can be seen if looked at with a humble yet reasonable point of view. The West became too successful. Look, for example, at the intellectual and philosophical splendor of Europe before the second world war. What happened to it? Was it economics that caused the Europeans to decline intellectually?

Look at the nations that industrialized themselves in the nineteenth century. It was the native intelligence of the people, their literacy, their scientific curiosity their drive for exploration and discovery. This is not an economic source of native greatness.

The West has lost its hunger, has lost its metaphysical and religious yearnings, has lost the 'fire in the belly', lost its fundamental drive for power.

The price of these Asian goods today for America is more than a cruise liner, the price of Asian goods is the entire American standard of living including basic employment oppurtunities. The price of a cheap, 'dumped' Asian product for America could not be more expensive than the entire American economy and American way of life, which is what the true cost will eventually amount to.


I don't advocate a return to the gold standard but I can't help but notice that the debt driven system is fatally flawed.

But the 'idea' of a gold standard, the idea that money is precious, the idea that human beings need to cherish and save and suffer for their food - these basic fundamental human qualities are missing from our hyper-consumerist society. And that is the problem, you must save in order to invest and you must invest in order to produce - without the ethic of saving money there can be no investment and no production. But Americans do not save, they borrow and spend... to the point of recklessness!

Quote:
How old are you?...serious question....


I'll send you a PM.

[quote]Thank you Nostradamus, have you told any one of this revelation?[/quote]
Quote:

When the shoot hits the fan indeed,...it has hit and is being circulated as we speak. Social dysfunction comes from not having a viable economy; it is not the cause of it.


Benjamin Franklin was a man of the Enlightenment who went around inventing great things and spreading those inventions around his country for all to share. The Ben Franklins must come, Enlightenment must come first, and then, if your country is lucky, a hundred years later the practical and economic benefits will come. We are determined more by political philosophy than by economics. It is the political "right" to private property which drives men to acquire things because it allows them to aquire things. These 'rights' come from the minds of philosophers and were adopted by founders of political federations, were given to a fortunate nation and were pursued by the people -this is the locus of prosperity. Without freedom there is no incentive for men to even labour at all.

Third world African nations get billions of dollars from the Western nations today. This is real money. But the leaders stuff it in their bank accounts. These poor African countries need a Ben Franklin, they need an Enlightenment, they need moral political philosophers. And if they have these things then maybe if they are lucky, then they will get rewarded economically. Social dysfunction comes from lack of discipline, backwardness, lack of ethical standards, political diffusion and ignorance- especially ignorance of natural sciences and physics.

The Rennaisance, the rise of Western Europeans after the decline of Rome, was not primarily an economic phenomenon. In fact, as you know, it was largely an artistic movement. Yet it paved the way for improvements, centuries later, in the standard of living for the Europeans.



Quote:
Sorry about the ad homs, but your thoughts deserve it.


You are doing fine. I appreciate it.
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jan, 2010 01:29 am
@Pythagorean,
Economics in theory anyway is not a zero sum game.
In theory the living standards in the rest of the world could rise and US living standards could stay the same or rise slower.

Yes, we have some profound structural problems with sustainable levels of debt and rising populism. Most of our debt problems are in the form of entitlement programs for the benefit of current generations being paid for by future generations (the worst form; and an unsustainable form of populism).

Experience would indicate that markets (true markets not monopolies) more efficiently and effectively allocate resources (material and human) than governments and politicians do. Market economies are the economic equivalent of representative governments and popular sovereignty. In general in countries with market economies economic growth is faster and living standards rise quicker than in planned economies or in economies with excess governmental interference and regulation. In general free trade results in more and quicker economic growth than protectionist policies.
0 Replies
 
Psycobabble
 
  1  
Reply Sat 9 Jan, 2010 03:24 pm
@Pythagorean,
Pythagorean;118708 wrote:
In the meantime I will say that it would come as no surprise to discover that the U.S. was a signatory of such an agreement. But this does not thereby nullify the U.S. Constitution which forbids relinquishing of U.S. sovereignty. .


Sovereignty under the constitution or not the Lima Protocol and following GATT agreements bring penalties to signatory countries should any protocols be flaunted, while non signatory nations are disenfranchised through lending policies and embargo should they not comply with the "money" (I use the word "money" to tag the organizations and individuals who direct the game).

Pythagorean you have asked pertinent questions that I choose not to answer point by point, not because they are irrelevant but more so because the subject matter breaks into many facets that defray the core issue of the breakdown and relocation of manufacturing in the first world for the net gain of the "money". Our politicians do not want us to focus on this simple truth. Below is a graph that outlines our woes, and it started in the seventies with the Lima agreement and escalates to the present.


Re the who is behind the conspiracy I bleat about, all I can say is that it is not the plebs.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/USDebt.png/350px-USDebt.png
This graph alone brings a tear to the eye when we consider how wretched we have become financially from a position of strength, and we did not blow it, it was taken from us by the "money".

U.S. debt from 1940 to 2008. Red lines indicate the public debt and black lines indicate the gross debt, the difference being that the gross debt includes funds held by the government (e.g. the Social Security Trust Fund). The second chart shows debt as a percentage of U.S. GDP or dollar value of economic production per year. Data from U.S. Budget historical tables at whitehouse.gov/omb and other tables listed when you click on the figure.

---------- Post added 01-10-2010 at 07:41 AM ----------

prothero;118762 wrote:
In general in countries with market economies economic growth is faster and living standards rise quicker than in planned economies or in economies with excess governmental interference and regulation. In general free trade results in more and quicker economic growth than protectionist policies.


Prothero, this statement is unequivocal and the sort of rationale that keeps us from seeing the truth and that is we have been pillaged for the sake of corporate profit. As you said we are propping up the currently unemployed with borrowed funds that the future unemployed have to deal with.....do not blame the plebs who receive govt aid, they are victims not perpetrators.
Pythagorean
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Jan, 2010 03:25 pm
@Psycobabble,
Psycobabble;118861 wrote:
Sovereignty under the constitution or not the Lima Protocol and following GATT agreements bring penalties to signatory countries should any protocols be flaunted, while non signatory nations are disenfranchised through lending policies and embargo should they not comply with the "money" (I use the word "money" to tag the organizations and individuals who direct the game).

Pythagorean you have asked pertinent questions that I choose not to answer point by point, not because they are irrelevant but more so because the subject matter breaks into many facets that defray the core issue of the breakdown and relocation of manufacturing in the first world for the net gain of the "money". Our politicians do not want us to focus on this simple truth. Below is a graph that outlines our woes, and it started in the seventies with the Lima agreement and escalates to the present.


Re the who is behind the conspiracy I bleat about, all I can say is that it is not the plebs.


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/3b/USDebt.png/350px-USDebt.png
This graph alone brings a tear to the eye when we consider how wretched we have become financially from a position of strength, and we did not blow it, it was taken from us by the "money".

U.S. debt from 1940 to 2008. Red lines indicate the public debt and black lines indicate the gross debt, the difference being that the gross debt includes funds held by the government (e.g. the Social Security Trust Fund). The second chart shows debt as a percentage of U.S. GDP or dollar value of economic production per year. Data from U.S. Budget historical tables at whitehouse.gov/omb and other tables listed when you click on the figure.

---------- Post added 01-10-2010 at 07:41 AM ----------



.


You must provide the agenda of the "money". The mask of the "money" needs to be revealed so the world will know the reason behind its utter destruction.

Does the "money" posess a purpose? Is the "money" real or is it a figment of one's imagination?

You say the "plebs" are victims of the "money". The "plebs" might like to know who is victimizing them and why. Do the "plebs" the honor of spelling the name of those who are in the process of utterly destroying them!!!
0 Replies
 
prothero
 
  1  
Reply Sun 10 Jan, 2010 04:13 pm
@Psycobabble,
Psycobabble;118861 wrote:
Prothero, this statement is unequivocal and the sort of rationale that keeps us from seeing the truth and that is we have been pillaged for the sake of corporate profit. As you said we are propping up the currently unemployed with borrowed funds that the future unemployed have to deal with.....do not blame the plebs who receive govt aid, they are victims not perpetrators.
What exactly is the "truth" of economic policy as you see it?
What is your economic system that will be "fair and just"?
Which form of economic system works best in your view?
Remember to judge policies by results not by intentions.
Remember to judge people as they are not as you would like them to be?
Psycobabble
 
  1  
Reply Mon 11 Jan, 2010 07:18 pm
@prothero,
prothero;119022 wrote:
What exactly is the "truth" of economic policy as you see it?


The only truth to the world economy as I see it is the accumulation of personal wealth for the plebs and commercial wealth for the traders. A system that returns goods for viable currency that can be utilized to proffer gain for both sides of the transaction, an equitable system that replaces the Bata system, which was the first instrument we humans utilized when trading with each others. Modern economic systems have surpassed the trading of goods for currency and we have running in tangent a secondary system of trading in "potential" such is the "futures market". This futures market looks for another profit motive apart from the transaction of goods for currency that inflates the core transaction. In the plainest of terms we now have two market systems, one that mirrors the Bata system and one that creates capital where only capital return is involved, the goods are later traded under the Bata system of goods for currency. One market is for the plebs and the other for the "money". This second system disadvantages the first in as much as there is a worth given not to the transaction but to the potential of the transaction.

Quote:
What is your economic system that will be "fair and just"?


Prothero, consider the superannuation funds that are in place in the first world. Initially they were set up to bring a return to the plebs after a life of gainful employment so as they could live out their non productive senior years in comfort. Initially these funds were invested in "blue chip" companies to secure a modest return with maximum security of the funds. These funds used to carry caveats in their terms of use that directed the funds to safe investments and govt projects that aided the commonwealth of that nation. But at some point the money market wanted wider access to those funds and we have seen the losses to the plebs that this policy has delivered.
Fair and just if it ever existed does not exist now. I have no issue with capitalism, just the free range policies of the money market that benefit the minority of manipulators of that market, especially since they have been able to control the capital of the plebs via the super funds.


Quote:
Which form of economic system works best in your view?


True capitalism that proffers return for activity

Quote:
Remember to judge policies by results not by intentions.


If that is the criteria for judgement then Aug 2008 should ring out as a the ultimate failure of the system as it has evoled over the past thirty years.


Quote:
Remember to judge people as they are not as you would like them to be?


I remember an interview with Charles Manson (the cult leader of the 70's) who when asked what he would do with society if he was released from prison, he replied with "there would be none of you left". He was a realist, he was right, we are tainted, but we have the potential to be better and that is how I approach humanity.

---------- Post added 01-12-2010 at 11:26 AM ----------

Pythagorean;119015 wrote:
You must provide the agenda of the "money". The mask of the "money" needs to be revealed so the world will know the reason behind its utter destruction.

Does the "money" posess a purpose? Is the "money" real or is it a figment of one's imagination?

You say the "plebs" are victims of the "money". The "plebs" might like to know who is victimizing them and why. Do the "plebs" the honor of spelling the name of those who are in the process of utterly destroying them!!!


You want a list of "first up against the wall" when the revolution comes,........Politicians, U.N. bureaucrats, World Bank and I.M.F. manipulators, and the heads of the financial trading houses of the first world.
Pythagorean
 
  1  
Reply Thu 14 Jan, 2010 09:07 pm
@Psycobabble,
Psycobabble;119281 wrote:


You want a list of "first up against the wall" when the revolution comes,........Politicians, U.N. bureaucrats, World Bank and I.M.F. manipulators, and the heads of the financial trading houses of the first world.


Yes, those are the blooksuckers, Psychobabble. But I don't believe that any one identifiable group is responsible for the deindustrialization of America.
0 Replies
 
 

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