The Corruption of Man

There is nothing inherently good about man, there are only good perceptions of men. That much is certain.

You actually offended me when you said this:



That you can so willingly ignore the creator's responsibility in these matters is appalling.

It is only because of this "creator" that man finds themselves prostrate, begging for redemption.

Some may actually find your Stockholm Syndrome commendable, but I am not about to blame myself for being a slave.

tMeeker

Other than "there would be no need of a Creator" I agree, and do not find offensive. I would have said there would be no need of the Creator's redemption. But the will of the Creator would still be necessary and the instructions from the Creator to man would be necessary. And if you think about it, the mercy would still be necessary for if man would make one mistake, man would be dead meat at that moment.


It seems that the only Way to do the Will of the Creator, is to walk with the Voice of the Creator. It would also seem that man must walk with the Voice of the Creator, for man's voice will fail him in the end. For when man meets his Creator, man's voice, will, desire, purposes, and justifications will mean nothing in the presents of the Will and the Voice of the Creator.


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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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I honestly did not produce productive thoughts in my statement of "there would be no need of a creator". I take this statement back as I now realize that it was not accurate. My apologies for misrepresenting the Christian faith in this statement. I simply did not think before I wrote. And yes, dpmartin, I do fully agree with you that an Ultimate Creator is absolutely necessary whether man could redeem himself or not. God is our sole purpose and reason for being in existence.

It's encouraging to see another Christian here on the Philosophy Forum, I don't think the atheists or agnostic like me very much.

"Truth cannot be found in the things of this world, but in the God who created them."

I like you just fine TMeeker, I just don't like the insulting ways in which you portray us nonbelievers as prideful heathens.

I apologize for my portrayal of you.

tMeeker

Did not mean to be critical in any way, sorry, I believed it to be a presumed oops.

But the reason I did not find the posting offensive is that I know that I am nothing but a prideful heathen. I think your work is excellent and effective, don't stop.

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Mankind must be under the Truth, The Way, and The Life, for mankind cannot make any of these. Only declare or deny they are, or lie about it.
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It is quite alright, I have no doubt that it was unintentional.

If there were no creator (which I absolutely believe that there is) what would we need to be redeemed of? If there was no creator, people would have no standard of morality at all, save what was right in their own eyes. "In those days there was no king in Israel, but every man did that which was right in his own eyes" - Judges 17:6. I was not offended by the statement "Man is utterly corrupt, he possesses a virus which floods his character, his thoughts, his actions, his speech, and his mind." I completely agree with this.

:eek:

Baloo72,

I agree Baloo,what do we need to be redemmed of.God in the personified version is a creation of mankind,his spiritual traditions are again man's creation and his compassion represents his connection to every living thing.If man is corrupt,he is also divine.In some sense the self is of species or perhaps it belongs to all living things."The Self In One Is The Self In All." indeed if there were no such reality,compassion itself would not be,if you cannot identify the self in you with the self in others,you might well be a psychopath.

Think of the nice things people do for one another through out the day,this is due to identifying with them,if that was not happening, there would again be no expression of compassion,better stated,there would be no compassion and compassion is the mother of morality.So,no morality was not handed down to you by Zeus,it is a direct expression of your being,your consciousness.You miss direct one of the most basic spiritual fundamentals of all humanity,your relation to others."Love thy neighbour as thy self." It is true it is not spelled out in this quote,perhaps Jesus thought we could figure it out with a hint.


Reason is the enemy of faith.
Luther, Martin -

To tmeeker: there is a very important point in the development of the individual in the perennial philosophy of hinduism called (the name isn't important). it's a point where the mind finds its proper place ( there's a word for the place too) the point is a person reaches a stage at which his mind works properly. his thinking instrument works well enough so that he can apply reason properly without making gross errors. from a modern standpoint he would be applying himself scientifically to the search for truth. jesus said : "if the light in you is darkness how great is that darkness"? but jesus didn't have this problem or maybe you think he did? it sounds like your questioning the light? what if truth isn't truth? what if love isn't love? etc...you've got to find the rock to stand on and that's a scientific approach to thinking so that your data can be accepted as valid and you can also test the data offered by others. it's true that there's a lot of blind faith out there and that's not good. a real spiritual master will never ask anyone to believe what he's saying blindly but to test it out and come to the same conclusions themselves. there'll always be areas of differing beliefs due to the complexities of the issues and the levels of the devotees but the basics of love faith truth etc. can and usually are common ground among all true devotees of any religion.

tMeeker, this wasn't offensive at all and I do sense the Christianity in your statements. However, being a Christian from my understanding (because I was raised Christian), is the practice of doing what Jesus would do and walking in the light that Jesus walked. You started right off by saying man is corrupt and he posses a virus. I don't mean to be rash but Man is the creativity of the one Creator. The Jesus I know of taught us to turn the other cheek and to seek the good in man. You say there is nothing good in Man... does this mean there is nothing good in God? The Bible says that God created man in his image and since that time mankind has co-created with God.

I'm amazed that Christians are the first to judge when Jesus told us not to judge. In your statement you've judged all of mankind. If it's corruption you seek, corruption is what you'll find. Your statement seems to be very judgmental and it's so typical in the Christian faith.

The end. Do you realize how long they have been talking about "when the end finally comes"? Long time... as in thousands of years. There will be people talking of the end times 1000 years from now.

There is a lot inherently good about mankind the important thing is to recognize it and seek it. If it's corruption we seek, corruption is what is going to be shown to us. Man has to choose for himself to rise above and seek the light within him, the light of God and love and balance in all creation.


I think our sole purpose and reason for existence is to work with God in creativity and balance and to discover the God light within us. To reach a level of consciousness that only one man (Jesus) ever reached. Knowing the oneness of God and his creation.[INDENT]John 17 King James Version
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
[/INDENT]
Defining a Christian is another post in itself. There are masses who call themselves Christians yet skirt around the teachings of Jesus making their own way and judging the ways of others.

As far as atheists and agnostics, I didn't realize there were that many on here and haven't really seen them introduce themselves as such. I don't believe for one moment that people on here don't like you tMeeker you bring up some good discussions. I do however think it's important to be careful on how you swing the sword of judgment upon others because you could very well be judged by that same sword.

I think we need to discuss Christianity in more depth though because there's probably as many Christians out there that don't understand it as there are non-believers in Christ. Christians in my experience are most often the first to pass judgment and that's not what I consider Christianity because that's not what Christ taught us. Being a Christian is being a Christian by example, not because you say you are and pray for mercy and repent for your sins on Sunday and fast once a year.

Point to ponder - If you had to go to trial tomorrow before a judge in a court amongst a jury of your peers, would they have enough evidence to convict you of being a Christian? It's something to think about. - This is in general and not directed towards anyone... just a thought.

Bigbuddha, I fully agree with your above post. Thank you!

tMeeker, you are not disliked in here. This type of discussion is good because it prompts us to think and search deeply for truth. Most often times Christians run from this kind of discussion. Let's try to "Love ye One another".

I've included the below verses because I thought it very appropriate for the discussion and these were the words of Jesus as Mathew wrote and understood them.[INDENT] Mathew 6
1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
8 Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
10 Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
11 Give us this day our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:
15 But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
16 Moreover when ye fast, be not, as the hypocrites, of a sad countenance: for they disfigure their faces, that they may appear unto men to fast. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
17 But thou, when thou fastest, anoint thine head, and wash thy face;
18 That thou appear not unto men to fast, but unto thy Father which is in secret: and thy Father, which seeth in secret, shall reward thee openly.
19 Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon earth, where moth and rust doth corrupt, and where thieves break through and steal:
20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!
24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
25 Therefore I say unto you, Take no thought for your life, what ye shall eat, or what ye shall drink; nor yet for your body, what ye shall put on. Is not the life more than meat, and the body than raiment?
26 Behold the fowls of the air: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?
27 Which of you by taking thought can add one cubit unto his stature?
28 And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not, neither do they spin:
29 And yet I say unto you, That even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these.
30 Wherefore, if God so clothe the grass of the field, which to day is, and to morrow is cast into the oven, shall he not much more clothe you, O ye of little faith?
31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed?
32 (For after all these things do the Gentiles seek) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.
33 But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
34 Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof.
[/INDENT]

tMeeker,:p

Justin, I do agree with most of your post and thank you for it. Since you recommended that we talk about Christianity in more depth, I say we should do it.

First, about tMeeker's quote, I would like to change it a little bit, and make it my own. "If man actually held the ability to redeem himself.....there would be no need of a" Redeemer (Jesus Christ). This is what separates Christianity from Judaism.

Second, about judging others. . . We are not supposed to judge others un-righteously. The judgment Jesus was speaking about in Matt. 7:1 - 6 is self righteous legalistic judgment. This is what the Pharisees practiced. Their "religion" was like a checklist of dos and don'ts. If someone did something wrong, they would point the finger and judge. Everyone has done wrong (Rom. 3:23), so it is hypocritical to judge the way that the Pharisees were. We are supposed to judge in a discerning way (Matt. 7:15 - 20). I still believe, and stand by what tMeeker said, "Man is utterly corrupt, he possesses a virus which floods his character, his thoughts, his actions, his speech, and his mind." We can be redeemed though. Through the new covenant that God made with all of mankind, not just Israel, we can be redeemed. The new covenant is Jesus Christ. Matt. 26:27 - 28 "Then He took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. For this is My blood of the new covenant, which is shed for the remission of sins'" This remission of sins is available to anyone, unlike the religion of the Pharisees. If you were a gentile, as far as they were concerned, you were going to hell.


Jesus did teach us to turn the other cheek, but even as Christians, our humanity (the virus that floods our actions) gets the best of us, and we simply don't do what we know is right. I say that there is nothing in man that God would accept without us going through his son Jesus Christ. Isaiah 64:6 "but we are like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, and our iniquities, like the wind Have taken us away."

Matt. 7:1 - 6

"Judge not, that you be not judged. For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces."



Rom. 3:23

"for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God"

Matt. 7:15 - 20

"Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Therefore by their fruits you will know them."

Sorry I can't go on, I really have to go now.

tMeeker:p

Christians!!:eek:

Justin,

Our sole purpose is love & obedience to God.

Jesus asked the rich young ruler,"Why do you call me good? No one is good besides God." Man is a beautiful and adored creation, but he is corrupt. That isn't judgement, that's what Jesus taught. See quote below for the cure--through salvation!

Jesus also said He was coming back. Whether that is tomorrow or 2 thousand more years from now, He's coming. If you walk out in front of a bus--you'll see Him sooner than that! This time He's coming as Judge so we'd better have His understanding of our purpose and morality because the one of our own invention will not hold water.

To deny the above is to deny the teachings of Christ. You are free to have your own ideas, of course, but don't call them Christianity.

To be Christian means to be Christ-like.

Someone can be Christ-like without ever hearing the teachings of Christ, if they are a truly peaceful and spiritual person.

Not really. To be a Christian is to be a follower of Jesus Christ--His purposes; His Leadership. Peaceful and spiritual are wonderful, but that is not the definition of a Christian.

And Christ laid down His life--not a lot of vague spiritualization in His example. Not a lot of peace either. (Not in the way the world views peace anyway.)