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@vikorr,

Let see where do we start?

Yes, we should all have our homes/computers/ or whatever open to searches at the whim of governments to stop the child porn trade and our used of the internet tightly control and monitor also to protected our children.

Bullshit, this is just one hell of a great excuse to attacks the freedoms of people and gives the local government and the people in charge of those governments greater control of their people instead of the other way around.

A suppose free government is now trying to get into place a secret list of where it citizens can go or not go on the internet and if you think that this is to protected the children of Australia then I had a few gold mines to sell you.

The great wall of Australia is not likely to stop one child porn trade/sale however it will indeed slow down the ability of the people of Austria to used the internet as a tool of free associations perhaps for the truly evil purpose of changing their government leadership.

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@vikorr,

Oh Vikorr given that most sexual abused of children are done by family members and close friends of the family if you ready ready care about the children I would suggest placing seal cameras in all homes that contain children.

With the feed going to the local police so they can monitor and protect the children using software and humans.

After all who need privacy as only evil child pedophiles would have a problem with such a program.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Yes, we should all have our homes/computers/ or whatever open to searches at the whim of governments to stop the child porn trade and our used of the internet tightly control and monitor also to protected our children.

Lol, who said this? I certainly didn’t. Given the very specific circumstances I gave, you are now making things up, which usually means you don’t have any substance to back up your stance.

BillRM wrote:

Bullshit, this is just one hell of a great excuse to attacks the freedoms of people and gives the local government and the people in charge of those governments greater control of their people instead of the other way around.

A suppose free government is now trying to get into place a secret list of where it citizens can go or not go on the internet and if you think that this is to protected the children of Australia then I had a few gold mines to sell you.

Are we talking about seizing suspected pedophiles computers here and searching them...which is what we have been doing, or are you now trying to broaden the discussion because of the weak case you have for the former?

BillRM wrote:

Oh Vikorr given that most sexual abused of children are done by family members and close friends of the family if you ready ready care about the children I would suggest placing seal cameras in all homes that contain children.

Another attempt to divert attention from the undefendable position you have put yourself in. See above.

BillRM wrote:

After all who need privacy as only evil child pedophiles would have a problem with such a program.

And yet another attempt - because from what I have written, this is so obviously not my position that, once again, you are making things up to divert attention from the weakness of your disagreement with me on searching suspected pedophiles computers under warrant.

Seriously Bill, just here you are showing such a penchant for being unable to follow an ‘argument’ (both mine and your own) that I wonder about the likelihood of ever holding a rational conversation with you on this point. From the amount of stuff you just made up, my guess is, not likely.

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@vikorr,

Quote:

Are we talking about seizing suspected pedophiles computers here and searching them...whi

We are talking about seizing and searching computers of people who the government is claiming might be child porn traders and from my research all it would take is someone stealing your credit card information and instead of using it to buy electronic they purchased child porn with your card.

Or clicking on the wrong link fro that matter.

Sorry dear you had stated that privacy is not an important right of human beings and any such rights that may exist is purely secondary to stopping the greater danger to children from on line child porn trading.

As that seem to be your position I was just taking it to it logical conclusions.

If the overriding concern of society should be preventing the sexual abused of children and as most such abused is from adult or near adult male family members not internet child porn traders it seem simple logic that we should ban all adult males from living in a family that contain children.

Any harm to the families or society as a whole should be secondary to stopping children sexual abused and the above should stop 90 percents or so of such abused dead in it tracks and all this without the need of raiding one home looking for internet child porn.

We as a society always in fact weight cost to benefits of all actions and sometime even the goal such as ending child abused some methods are not worth the cost of doing so.

In any case my hard drives are not open to anyone inspection but myself and I had taken steps to made damn sure that the way it will remain from someone ripping off my laptop when I am traveling to the government of the US seizing my systems during a 5 AM raid for whatever claimed reasons they might give.

Anyone with just a few minutes of research on the internet can find out also how to protect their computer privacy even in countries such as you live in where the government can demand your encrypted keys by court order or have your ISP spy on you by deep packet inspections. All for the claimed benefits of the children.

There is now first rate free software that allow you to run completely hidden encrypted OS on your computers that no one can prove that even exist. Google the word “truecrypt” for more details. So must for court orders demanding keys be turn over.

ISPs/government spying can be stop by using such methods as the "tor" network and the software also can be found free on the internet.

To sum up I am not going to be interview by the police without a lawyer and I am not going to allow anyone to dig around my digital information.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

I’m familiar with encrypted proxy servers as a way around filters. The encrypted OS thing is interesting – yet pedophiles still get caught, which is a good thing. Funnily enough, under your system it would be hard to ever get a conviction. But that’s alright, your privacy is 100% guaranteed under your system, even if you do commit a crime. Must be nice to never have to worry about police gathering evidence against crimes, so long as they are stored on computer.

BillRM wrote:

We are talking about seizing and searching computers of people who the government is claiming might be child porn traders and from my research all it would take is someone stealing your credit card information and instead of using it to buy electronic they purchased child porn with your card.

Did your research show just how uncommon your scenario actually is? Though, let’s say it did happen – your scenario would be correct. And unless ‘the bad guys’ also managed to take over your computer and use it to store kiddy porn on, you won’t get charged. On the positive side, hundreds of pedophiles have been caught by this method - stupidity catches a lot of criminals.

BillRM wrote:

Sorry dear you had stated that privacy is not an important right of human beings and any such rights that may exist is purely secondary to stopping the greater danger to children from on line child porn trading.

This is the sort of gibberish which makes it impossible to have a rational conversation with you. You're welcome to try and substantiate that, and I can show you how, all through my posts, this sort of nonsense claim by you makes a conversation with you farcial.

BillRM wrote:

As that seem to be your position I was just taking it to it logical conclusions.

No. You were trying to avoid a subject for which you so far have no feasible justification.

BillRM wrote:

If the overriding concern of society should be preventing the sexual abused of children and as most such abused is from adult or near adult male family members not internet child porn traders it seem simple logic that we should ban all adult males from living in a family that contain children.

More silliness. It appears one the reasons this conversation goes all over the place is you can’t fathom the concept of ‘reasonable suspicion’ (of in this case, being a pedophile), you can't fathom the place search warrants have in our legal systems, and in this case you only perceive extremes without comprehending the need for balance.

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@vikorr,

Quote:

Did your research show just how uncommon your scenario actually is? Though, let’s say it did happen – your scenario would be correct. And unless ‘the bad guys’ also managed to take over your computer and use it to store kiddy porn on, you won’t get charged. On the positive side, hundreds of pedophiles have been caught by this method - stupidity catches a lot of criminals.

It had sadly happen more then once and such cases can be found by using Google news.

It is not common and I do not know how many completely innocence families having a police raid in the middle of the night you consider too many either.

Second, you are not normally clear for some time as they normally turn over your computer, to computer forensics experts and there are commonly many months backlog at that stage.

One man in fact ended up losing his job and had his whole family including his own father turn their back on him during such a waiting period.

Then there was the case of the female teacher who school computer had malware that pop dirty pictures up in front of her and her young students.
Not only was she fired but she in fact ended up facing a trial where only the fact that top experts got interested in the case save her from jail time.

Here is a story you might also find interesting and yes such is not common also however, anyone with access to your computers at work or home can do similar deeds.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7081986.ece

A man has been sent to prison after he attempted to force his way into a female colleague’s life by breaking into her house and framing her husband for downloading child pornography.

Ilkka Karttunen, who was born in Finland, became obsessed by a co-worker and hoped that he could forge a relationship with her if he could break up her marriage, jurors at Basildon Crown Court were told.

He sneaked into her home in Southend, Essex, while she and her family were asleep and used the family computer to download images of children being abused, the jury was told.

Kartunnen, 48, who denied charges of harrassment, perverting the course of justice and making indecent images of children between December 2008 and March 2009, then stole the computer’s hard drive and sent it anonymously to police with a note stating that it had been taken from his victim’s address.

Suzanne Stringer, for the prosecution, said that police officers went to the house of the victim, who cannot be named for legal reasons, and arrested her husband on suspicion of possession of indecent images of children. “This had a devastating effect on the family as he was given no access to his young children or his home while he was under investigation and he had to live with the trauma of being accused of crimes against young children, of which he is wholly innocent,” she said.

Officers who investigated the case discovered evidence of Karttunen’s involvement when they searched his home. In his garden shed they discovered a computer that contained the entire contents of his victim’s home computer, including family photographs, pictures of her husband’s bank statements, credit and debit cards.

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@vikorr,

Oh Vikorr my not to bright now ex-son-in-law needed help getting some printer sharing to work on his home network between an old XP system and my step daughter 64 bit Vista system.

In working on the task, I found the following his whole C drive was share with the whole network and the network had no encryption so anyone in range could join.

Now to add ice cream to the cake a register sex offender was living next door well within range of this network.

To sum up the neighbor could had join his network downloaded child porn using my son-in-law ISP address and even store the child porn on my then son-in-law computer!

I can remember saying oh my god to my wife when I came across this situation.

Only a fool luck save my then son-in-law from a long prison term and even after unsharing his C drive and placing WPA2 on the network he did not seem to understand the risks he had been running by being that careless.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

It's sad that while it is unusual (and usually difficult), it is possible to manipulate computers. It's also sad that people get convicted on circumstancial evidence for murders they didn't commit. Our legal system is not a perfect system. That doesn't mean there should be no system.

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@vikorr,

Quote:

It's sad that while it is unusual (and usually difficult), it is possible to manipulate computers. It's also sad that people get convicted on circumstancial evidence for murders they didn't commit. Our legal system is not a perfect system. That doesn't mean there should be no system.

ISP address tracking by itself to start with should not be enough to get a search warrant to break down a family door looking for child porn trading and that in the US that is the current state of our laws.

First, there are at this very moment roughly a dozen wireless networks signals strong enough for me to be able to log onto from my home.

Of that dozen, two have no protection at all and I could log on to without any problem, six of the remaining networks are protected with WEP encryption only that can be broken into in less then a minute allowing me or anyone else to log on.

So out of the dozen networks only four have WPA protection that cannot currently be broken and therefore is safe from evil doers stealing into the networks of those families.

Now how many families and how many children of those families are you willing to subject to the life long trauma of an incorrect police raid?

Yes, you can indeed find child porn traders by raiding homes by backtracking ISP addresses mainly because people are stupid however we are not talking about murder or even direct harm to children for the most part when you are talking about such trading.

So once more how must harm are you willing to do to innocent families in your fight against child porn trading?

1 Reply

@BillRM,

Bill,

Quote:

ISP address tracking by itself to start with should not be enough to get a search warrant to break down a family door looking for child porn trading and that in the US that is the current state of our laws.

Nowhere did I say the above. You seriously need to stop making up positions for me - you've been indulging in such silliness for most of the past few posts - and as I said previously, it's hard to have any sort of rational conversation with you because of this.

Quote:

So once more how must harm are you willing to do to innocent families in your fight against child porn trading?

An extremely one eyed perspective as the basis for the question, and I already answered the complete question in previous posts.

1 Reply

@vikorr,

Quote:

Nowhere did I say the above. You seriously need to stop making up positions for me - you've been indulging in such silliness for most of the past few posts - and as I said previously, it's hard to have any sort of rational conversation with you because of this.

Come on Vikorr when I had stated that the fight against child porn traders as it is now being fought had resulted in innocence people being harm your position was that such happening is rare and only does short term harm at the worst.

My postings was therefore directed at those positions and that current laws and practices allowing raids on homes with no evidence beyond an ISP backtracking, a credit card used to purchase child porn, or even a recorded click on a honey pot link.

I had address why all of the above had and will continue to cause raids on innocence families and why the harm of such raids can last for months or more as computers sit in some warehouse waiting their turn to be examined by forensics experts.

1 Reply

@BillRM,

BillRM wrote:

Come on Vikorr when I had stated that the fight against child porn traders as it is now being fought had resulted in innocence people being harm your position was that such happening is rare and only does short term harm at the worst.

The italicised part is only partly correct as a perspective, and the underlined part is yet again made up by you, and neither have much to do with my post that you just replied to :

BillRM wrote:

ISP address tracking by itself to start with should not be enough to get a search warrant to break down a family door looking for child porn trading and that in the US that is the current state of our laws.

Vikorr wrote:

Nowhere did I say the above. You seriously need to stop making up positions for me - you've been indulging in such silliness for most of the past few posts - and as I said previously, it's hard to have any sort of rational conversation with you because of this.

Well, this pattern of yours has gone on too long and these sorts of conversations just don't work, so unless someone else wishes to contribute, I'll bow out.

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@vikorr,

Byby and be sure that your wireless network is secure with WPA2.

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