The veil

@msolga,

I agree with everything she says about the burqua...and the disgusting interpretation of Islam which is behind it...but I still don't know that banning the damn thing is the way to go.

Have you found much stuff from Muslim women on it, Msolga?

I know we can easily be brainwashed to embrace our own oppression, but their voice seems important to me.

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@dlowan,

For isnstace:

Does the banning of head-scarfs at school mean kids are schooled in private Muslim schools?

Does the banning of the burqua in France's civil service mean Muslim women end up more isolated and powerless because many jobs are not open to them?

In Iran, forced modernisation about burquas and other religious shibboleths under the Shah appears to have led to an extremist reaction. Look what fun it is for women in Iran right now.

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Here's an interesting article written a few days ago, featuring women who say they wear the veil freely (one is divorced) and aren't even sure they'll abide by the law if it's passed. A few said they will take their case to the European Court of Human Rights if arrested.

The French Council of State has apparently said a full ban would likely not pass constitutional muster. France's Muslim leaders have said the face-covering veil is not required by Islam, but have also warned that a ban on the full veil risks stigmatizing all Muslims.

"They say they are going to free us," said one woman, but "it's the state who will force us into cloisters. We will have to sue for sequestration." Another, a business woman, said she has been wearing a burqa-like veil for so many years that she's not sure she'd know how to take it off.

I'm sure they get a certain amount of flak for wearing headscarves and veils since there are insensitive people in every country. I do think some women who feel what they wear shouldn't be dictated by the government will naturally grow resentment about the issue, especially as their home countries probably did the exact same thing to them.

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/news/faith/2010/05/women_protesting_french_veil_b.html

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But those veils are so sexy. Distilled essence of Eastern Promise with no countervailing impressions.

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Deb wrote:

Does the banning of head-scarfs at school mean kids are schooled in private Muslim schools?

No, only in public schools, based on separation of church and state.

and wrote:

Does the banning of the burqua in France's civil service mean Muslim women end up more isolated and powerless because many jobs are not open to them?

It's the opposite, they have more opportunities if not wearing the headscarf..

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@Francis,

You completely failed to understand both points you quoted Francis.

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Irishk wrote:

The French Council of State has apparently said a full ban would likely not pass constitutional muster. France's Muslim leaders have said the face-covering veil is not required by Islam, but have also warned that a ban on the full veil risks stigmatizing all Muslims.

On the other hand, the Supreme Administrative court advised that a whole ban would be legal and preferable...

But see, the quote above is an example of what leads people to not have a clear idea of what is at stake.

Mixing a legal advice on a future French law with the opinion of religious leaders..

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@dlowan,

Probably, you know I'm no expert.

Can you paraphrase, then?

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@Francis,

Francis wrote:

But see, the quote above is an example of what leads people to not have a clear idea of what is at stake.

Yes. Also the polls I've seen indicate the existing law as well as the proposed law have the support of much of the French population. That's a consideration that needs to be taken into account, and my apologies if you found my criticism out of line (since I don't live there and can't know the specifics of what lead to these measures).

My participation has been theoretically-based on what would happen if similar laws were attempted here, or at least, that's what I've intended.

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@dlowan,

I'm not deb, but I think she was trying to say that a ban might lead Muslims to segregate themselves in order to maintain this custom. (Have I interpreted you correctly, deb?)

dlowan wrote:

For isnstace:

Does the banning of head-scarfs at school mean (HEAD-SCARF WEARING) kids are (WILL BE) schooled in private Muslim schools?

Does the banning of the burqua in France's civil service mean Muslim women end up more isolated and powerless because many jobs are not (WILL NOT BE) open to them (WHILE WEARING THE BURQUA)?

In Iran, forced modernisation about burquas and other religious shibboleths under the Shah appears to have led to an extremist reaction. Look what fun it is for women in Iran right now.

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@Eva,

Eva wrote:

I'm not deb, but I think she was trying to say that a ban might lead Muslims to segregate themselves in order to maintain this custom. (Have I interpreted you correctly, deb?)

That's a good point. I think many in the Amish communities here have self-segregated. Amish women typically wear some type of head covering and I believe few Amish children attend public schools (although their customs in apparel may not be the only reason for that).

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Eva wrote:

Does the banning of head-scarfs at school mean (HEAD-SCARF WEARING) kids are (WILL BE) schooled in private Muslim schools

One could think that would happen, if the French reasoned like Americans. But there's a different cultural context.

Muslim schools are scarce and expensive in France. Muslim families tend to have low or average incomes.

As so, families tend to keep their kids in public schools and gave up the use of headscarves.

There's also a societal pressure against the headscarf, which is less strong in the US.

Eva wrote:

Does the banning of the burqua in France's civil service mean Muslim women end up more isolated and powerless because many jobs are not (WILL NOT BE) open to them (WHILE WEARING THE BURQUA)?

That can't happen in France.

To be in the civil service, one needs to possess the French nationality.

A French woman willing to wear the burqa? I doubt it.

A Muslim woman that gave up her nationality to acquire the French nationality and still wants to wear the burqa? (and wants to become a civil servant) I doubt it.

The logical conclusion is that the few women that wear the burqa in France will welcome the new law and abandon its use..

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@Francis,

Thanks for the explanation about the cultural differences! I can see the point of the new law as it would apply to schoolgirls.

However, I still don't fully understand your point about women. Are you saying that women who wear the burqa in France are not French citizens? If that is the case, why should they respect a French law?

And why would you assume that wearing (or not wearing) the burqa is actually their choice? I would assume such a choice was imposed upon women by their husbands, families or religious leaders, who would not allow them to give up the tradition. Rather than risk legal action, the women could become even more sequestered than before...i.e., it might make a bad situation worse.

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Eva wrote:

Are you saying that women who wear the burqa in France are not French citizens?

That's exactly what I'm saying, the overwhelming majority of the women that wear the burqa in France are legal alien residents. There's maybe two or three French women that wear the burqa.

and wrote:

If that is the case, why should they respect a French law?

Dear Eva, do I need to ask you if the legal alien residents in the United States are obliged to respect the law of the country?

Eva wrote:

And why would you assume that wearing (or not wearing) the burqa is actually their choice?

I assume quite the contrary as stated here:

Francis wrote:

It would be simple if it was a choice for the women.

Many of us, in France, think it's slavery and a prison for women to wear the burqa.

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@Francis,

Francis wrote:

Dear Eva, do I need to ask you if the legal alien residents in the United States are obliged to respect the law of the country?

Obliged? Yes. But do they? Not always.

If France passes such a law, it would give the government the right to fine, jail or expel legal alien residents who refuse to comply...am I correct? That seems like a harsh way to deal with non-violent women who are already subjugated. Or...is that the true purpose of the proposed law? Would the French citizenry prefer these extremist families leave France?

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@Eva,

Quote:

Would the French citizenry prefer these extremist families leave France?

The English citizenry would if what I hear in the pub is anything to go by. Muslim women can be seen in our streets with the lot on up to a fine gauze over the eyes. Nobody bothers much about it. One might presume that the husbands think their wives so sexy that even their eyes can inflame other men. In a way it's the opposite of our system where husbands with sexy wives encourage them to flaunt it.

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@Eva,

Quite right Eva! Haven't been able to get in to A2k until just now, so couldn't respond.

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@Eva,

Francis and Eva, good dialog.. (listening to both of you)

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@Francis,

On that, I read somewhere 2000. So, in either case, nominal. A point of conjecture.

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@ossobuco,

ossobuco wrote:

Francis and Eva, good dialog.. (listening to both of you)

Yes, dialogue...not debate. I do trust that Francis knows how much I detest this particular custom. I am just trying to determine the efficacy of a proposed law banning it.

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