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The Diary of a Worldly Streetsmart Traveller: Israel

 
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2010 06:32 am
@dagmaraka,
dagmaraka wrote:

which things, chai? the fears, needs, hopes, concern?

some are almost identical, almost funny (it a very twisted way). The Jews have a fear of being pushed back into the sea, Arabs of being thrown into Jordan (both metaphors reflecting the fragility of the state of Israel and of Palestine). Arabs focus on rights they want to attain - hope of their own state, hope of being able to travel and for "refugees" to come back (right of return)... Israelis have a lot more fear (more things to lose), they voice stereotypes a lot more (doesn't mean they have more stereotypes, but that in this process, this group voices them more...eh). It is damned hard, because the process of writing the list in the group is freeflowing and easy, but once you have to read it to the face of the other group, it can get ugly (including feeling ugly about self) and raw.


All three.

What you wrote is a good start, but I was hoping for more specifics.
"pushed back into the sea"? "thrown into Jordan"?
You say these are both metaphors. Metaphors for what?
Israelis voice more sterotypes. What sprecifically are these stereotypes they voice?

I've asked these questions of you before, and eventually gave up, because I could not seem to get you to speak past, what I consider, these vague generalities.

If this is how the communications flow back and forth, with your organization as the conduit, I can see how things could get ugly.
I feel, right now, like I'm walking on eggshells with you, to prevent you from acusing me of getting ugly.

What, exactly are the items on this list that you carry back and forth, without all the PC speak?

If you are obligated not to get specific, just come out and say so, stop beating around the burning bush.
If it's confidential information, fine, just say so.

I'm not trying to get ugly, I'm trying to understand, SPECIFICALLY, regardless of how small you may think the examples are, of what the people's problems with each other are.

I find this extremely interesting, but I also feel forced to get more and more direct to get some kind of answer that isn't veiled in generalities.

0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2010 07:41 am
Chai, i will not go into details of this group's process and list all the things said there. Workshops are a strictly confidential environment and that is why it will remain on such a general level. We have people working in risky situations and internet is not a place where this can be discussed.

Pushed back to the sea relates to WWII when Jews were coming on boats to current territory of Israel and were not allowed to land.

Thrown into Jordan river is also related to history of the Palestinians - but I cannot tell you what it relates to, I simply do not know.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2010 07:48 am
@dagmaraka,
...but the latter generally relates to the fear of being pushed out of Palestine (into Jordan, Lebanon...where many people ended up after the war of 1948 and subsequent military campaigns) -- that is my guess anyway.
0 Replies
 
chai2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2010 07:54 am
Thanks for coming out directly and saying you can't talk about it.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2010 07:55 am
that goes for any workshop i ever did. i can discuss the method but never particulars of any workshop. confidentiality is rule number one in this business.
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  2  
Reply Fri 18 Jun, 2010 08:38 am
I have failed to do the regular diary bit, but I would like to relate one trip since there is this thread and I have a deadline and am looking for an outlet for procrastination...

Half of the time in Israel I spent in Nazareth, then a day in Tel Aviv, day in Jerusalem, and remaining half in Palestine. Palestine was, for me, the most interesting. Tel Aviv is thoroughly enjoyable (if a bit discombobulated) city, Jerusalem is, well, impressive, but the whole city feels like a museum. I was looking forward to visiting Palestine, having been mesmerized in the past with the process of building the Wall, hearing about the daily obstacles from the life of friends that live there, I was curious.
Ramallah is, well, like much of Israeli architecture, a dense heap of square buildings scattered on hilly sides. It does, however, has a very distinct center with an old market and bustling cafes. Since I stayed with friends, I simply joined the daily routines with them - my favorite kind of traveling really. Crossword puzzles in a cafe in the morning, meetings with local human rights groups, trips to villages that are part of their work, etc.

I will tell you about one of them. Al Aquabah. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aqabah). It is a small village near Jordanian borders, in Area C (Palestine is divided into areas A, B and C with differing levels of security, checkpoints, etc). Only 300 people remain in the area. Most have moved out to surrounding towns and to Ramallah, since life around here is more than tough. Israeli government has issued demolition orders on the buildings in this area. The territory is very similar to Lebanese landscape, thus Israeli army has training camps here. Three training camps.

We came to Al Aquabah with a group of Israeli and Palestinian activists from the Simon Peres Peace Center, which started mixed football (soccer) teams. My friend Souli is the Palestinian coordinator. Thus we load the car with footballs, uniforms, and other football stuff. The village is nestled in a valley, surrounded by bald hills, everything is hot and dry. It looks like Scotland, but all dried up. You can see Jordan from here. There are some Roman ruins and some trees locals claim come from the Roman times (is that even possible?). Kharub trees, never heard of such. They have either goats or wine/tree farms. Can't have both, goats and trees are enemies.
After the meeting (in Hebrew, which for me means another lengthy meditation session, luckily I am not easily bored), we have the best lunch I have had in a long long time (ok, since Nazareth in Tishreen restaurant, but that don't count...this is home cooking). And surprising, to me. Biryani, which is what you'd commonly get in India as well. (wondering how far this is spread).

The pleasant conversation with local women (one a lawyer, one a teacher) and with the mayor is accompanied by rounds of shooting from the hills. Army practice, normal part of the day. The mayor is in a wheelchair. He was shot three times many years ago during such army practice, one bullet lodged very near his heart remains there forever.

Surreal experience for me. Enjoying the day of an open road through this beautiful countryside, as a tourist being able to go anywhere I please, confronted with the daily reality of these people, who see the sea but cannot go there, worse yet, who are told that they are staying illegally on the land of their fathers and forefathers, whose houses have indeed been mostly demolished and tens of their villagers shot in the last two or so decades.

Not yet worked through my own feelings related to this trip, it's a work in progress. But this was one place I did feel the need to write about, even if I can't quite communicate the whole experience, as I cannot put it in words yet.

The Mayor with Ron from the Simon Peres center:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs543.snc3/29751_421398574364_697154364_5566773_5748104_n.jpg

Landscape looks so serene and peaceful. Yet, air is pierced with constant shooting coming from these hills, now serving as Israeli army training bases:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs543.snc3/29751_421398594364_697154364_5566775_503965_n.jpg
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 06:09 pm
I didn't feel like taking pictures in Ramallah, save for a few obligatory one at the end. Now I'm sorry I didn't capture the coffee shops: the guys doing their morning crossword puzzles, others smoking the hookah, the owner joking around.... All men of course, women are rarely to be seen. Sometimes younger ones, students mainly, and never at night.
Cafes in Ramallah are great. Really some great places to sit around, also listen to music or talks.... Neat. My favorite was Cafe La Vie and Cafe Karameh (means dignity, i.e.)... miss those places. can't find photos online.

Ramallah: hilly, dry, dusty, but the center is fun.
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash1/hs503.ash1/29751_421398684364_697154364_5566788_2031593_n.jpg


Below is not my photo. The market and shops in the old center are another great feature of the city.

http://cache.virtualtourist.com/1827157-One_of_Ramallahs_main_streets-Ramallah.jpg

Aaand the obligatory shot of Yassir Arafat's grave:
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc3/hs543.snc3/29751_421398669364_697154364_5566785_6238053_n.jpg
0 Replies
 
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 06:39 pm
Thanks, Dag, for sharing as much as you were comfortable with of your diary.
Fears, Needs, Hopes and Desires.
Those four words recurred in your narrative and in some of the responses here.
Fears, Needs, Hopes and Desires.
I will have to spend time mulling over that in the context of that part of the world.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 06:43 pm
@realjohnboy,
some light reading about the method if you're interested: http://www.beyondintractability.org/articlesummary/10309/

i'd really rather not discuss the workshops we did any more. happy to talk about the general method though.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 06:53 pm
@dagmaraka,
how very very odd

I just came to A2K to take a break from some reading.

Open in another window on my puter ... another page from beyondintractability which I was finding quite interesting

http://www.beyondintractability.org/essay/cross-cultural_communication/
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 06:56 pm
@ehBeth,
well, it's a good resource, that one.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 07:01 pm
@dagmaraka,
I like it quite a bit (I've been following Craig Kielburger for many years) - it was just a surprise to come here from there - to be linked right back.
dagmaraka
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 07:04 pm
@ehBeth,
world is so small. much of it (world) is hubris, but the rest is so connected. people, places, thoughts. i've also been on that site for years.
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 07:16 pm
@dagmaraka,
this link is for chai

http://www.beyondintractability.org/resources/news.jsp?nid=5110

(links to more interesting news than the general car crashes/ u. s. political navel-gazing)

following one of the links out from there took me to

http://www.myrepublica.com/portal/index.php?action=news_details&news_id=20052

it's an essay on the effect of not teaching history to students in Nepal

Quote:
But the cure of such violent nationalism also lies in history. Teaching and learning of history can help to dismantle all the nationalistic clichés and stereotypes.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 08:29 pm
Oh good grief. I thought I had this thread on email update, but apparently I didn't. (but I do now! Wink )
I now have a lot of catch-up reading to do.
This looks very, very interesting, dag.
realjohnboy
 
  1  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 09:14 pm
As a totally frivolous aside...I play internet scrabble. I have collected players from some 60 countries.
While the game is going on, or even after the game has ended, there is the opportunity to talk with the other player.
During the conflict between Israel and Lebanon a few years ago, I was actively involved with parents on either side who had children fighting. Oddly, they had little if any animosity towards each other. Rather, it was all about those four words mentioned above.
0 Replies
 
msolga
 
  2  
Reply Sat 19 Jun, 2010 09:16 pm
@msolga,
Just finished reading the entire thread.
Fascinating stuff, dag.
Thank you for sharing what you've felt it's OK to share. (I understand (perfectly) that it would be entirely inappropriate to go into details of the workshops.)
Amazing job you have, I've gotta say!
I feel proud to know you! Very Happy


Any chance of more? Smile
0 Replies
 
dagmaraka
 
  2  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 03:48 am
I will tell you about my trip to the Dead Sea. We went there from Al Aqabah, it was a road trip day.
The landscape there is (to me) so gorgeous. I keep saying it reminds me of Texas, if that makes any sense. The endless open road, rolling hills, nobody in sight anywhere (only a Jewish settlement here and there).
We got to the Dead Sea later in the afternoon. It's no tourist paradise. At least from Jericho side. You approach it through abandoned army barracks to get to a small muddy beach. Jordan is on the other side of the sea...not so far away.

Anyhow, we park, get inside, and the beach is rather deserted, save for a few people having some drinks in cafes. I felt a bit uneasy changing into a bikini, but whatever. It's a beach.

Just my luck. As soon as we proceed to the water, three buses of Muslims from India pull in. Now the beach is not empty anymore. It's crowded. It's full of head-to-toe covered Muslims, men and women, who don't take clothes off for swimming neither. I don't think I could have captured more attention if I had antennas on my head and was all green levitating above earth. Talk about the clash of cultures.

The sea itself was, eh. I prefer swimming to wallowing around clumsily. You can't really swim in the dead sea. So we did what people do, covered selves in the dead sea mud (at least i felt more covered) and got the hell out of there.

Been there done that, no need to ever go back.
Foofie
 
  1  
Reply Sun 20 Jun, 2010 07:18 pm
@talk72000,
talk72000 wrote:

You ever pointed out to both that genetically there is nary a difference between them. Their DNA are the same.

It is just their fanatic religions that are dividing them.


I do not believe that is correct. While both Jews and Arabs can show DNA markers from Middle Eastern ancestry, Ashkenazi Jews share DNA with many other groups in Europe, having mixed with peoples in every country they lived in.

I do not think that Arabs have to have genetic testing for tay-sachs disease, as many Ashkenazi Jews presently do, prior to marriage.

In my own opinion, many Ashkenazi Jews are actually quite Slavic at this point, having lived in Slavic countries for centuries, regardless of their propensity to marry within their gene pool.

I do not believe it is fanaticism that is dividing the two peoples. They both want the same piece of land. That was the same situation in nineteenth century western America between Anglos and Native Americans. Neither were called fanatics. Too simplistic, I believe.

talk72000
 
  1  
Reply Mon 21 Jun, 2010 03:51 pm
@Foofie,
There was lady from Kazakhstan with a surname of Ashkanazi. She looked Central Asian beauty and is a billionaire that Actor Gerald Butler seems to be dating. Could Ashkanzi Jews actually be Jewish Khazaris from Central Asia?
 

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