Why aren't we talking about "Draw Muhammad Day?" May 20th

http://www.blogto.com/upload/2008/08/20080808_PhelpsProtest1.jpg

http://eugenecho.files.wordpress.com/2009/06/2979979221_22456b3312.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3614/3342742419_5f2c7f8465.jpg

When people gather outside of the West Borough Baptist Church, we like it. We don't even wonder if moderate Christians will be insulted and flock towards extremist groups like the WBC.

Certainly these are "adversarial."

The thing is that even if a conservative Christian believes that homosexuality is a sin, they don't flock to Fred Phelps message. They don't flock in to defend Phelps. If anything, I think seeing the cultural conflict promotes introspection about the issue.

Protesting against a extreme Christian minority about an issue which spans into the moderate Christian's view (homosexuality = bad) is not an insult to all of Christianity. Christians understand the absurdity of the WBC, and protest it too. Moderate Muslims protest against their extreme groups too. I think they are no less capable of understanding the difference. Sure, I think you'll find people who don't understand if you go looking for them. Otherwise, I'm just going to give them the benefit of the doubt.

A
R
T

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

You aren't defending artist's right to free speech, you are becoming an artist yourself, with the sole purpose of proving to others that their beliefs - that Mohamed should not be drawn - is inferior to our beliefs that people can draw whatever the **** they want.

I'm doing both, and only the deliberately obtuse will deny this simple truth. How can you argue against my free speech rants and pretend I'm not defending free speech? Enough argument for the sake of argument already. I've stated my purpose, and anyone who wishes to doubt it for the sake of argument can join the fanatical A-hole targets of my cartoon in kissing my infidelic ass.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

...kissing my infidelic ass.

And that's what it's really about at the end of the day. Not any higher purpose, or defending anyone from anything. It's about telling people to kiss your ass, because you can do so.

Have fun, hope you feel just awesome about yourself and all that defendin' of free speech you're doing! You guys are the functional equivalent of the Keyboard Kommandos on the right-wing during the early days of the Iraq war: pretending that typing something online is the equivalent of actual work or actual action in defense of something. It isn't equivalent. It's just you spouting off your opinion and getting self-righteous about it when others challenge it.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
I agree about the message of the original creators (Matt & Trey). I think however that Muslims are no less intelligent or introspective than us enlightened Americans.

Let me ask: how well could you follow a nuanced and detailed conversation about issues in Pashtun, or in Farsi, or in any other language that you don't know at all? This is what I worry about. From the outside, it seems offensive for no good reason.

Cycloptichorn

Dude. I'd be lost in the woods. No doubt. I understand your point. I'm concerned about the language and culture gap too.

From the outside? I guess this is where I see things differently. I don't think moderate Muslims see this from the outside. So while, I might not be able to discuss the nuances of the Koran in Pashtun or Farsi, there are American Muslims that can and do. They get pushed forward to be the cultural bridge in this. That is what I mean by a call to the stage for moderate Muslims.

A question to the Muslim community is what response do they expect people will give to threats? Even if they disagree with Draw Muhammad day, I don't think they will struggle to understand it.

A
R
T

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@OCCOM BILL,

Quote:

Nonsense. We are currently living in a de facto state of censorship as creative effort is being suppressed by corporations and self-suppressed by artists themselves, ALL on account of the Death Threats from a fanatical few. Free speech is precisely what's under fire here, but I agree with you that we must use it to undermine every attempt to superimpose Sharia Law over our constitution.

It's the hypocrisy, Bill!

Why aren't you out there screaming about the effective censorship that goes on in the USA, all without the death threats? The sovereign country of Iraq was invaded because of transparent lies, over a hundred thousand people were killed, millions of lives destroyed, billions of dollars of infrastructure destroyed.

This scenario has been repeated so many times and what do you hear about it in the USA, in the media, from folks here, from your friends and associates.

Remember those evil people who remain silent.

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http://pagesperso-orange.fr/gismonda/protest.jpg

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@Cycloptichorn,

Quote:

on the right-wing during the early days of the Iraq war

An example of the insidious nature of the propaganda. "Iraq war", what absolute bullshit.

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@Butrflynet,

Butrflynet wrote:

If you do so by using it as an excuse to blatantly display your own offensive hatred and bigotry while justifying it as a free speech movement (as many of your fellow protesters are doing), then yes, I'd say that I'd be just as saddened by your actions as I am by what I've seen today.

Today, many of these images and comments on Facebook make me very ashamed to be an American.

Some of the images also are very good at making the point about free speech without also bringing in the derogatory bigotry and hate elements.

You've seen my picture, and it is not offensive. Further it was posted with this disclaimer:

Quote:

My sincere apologies to the Billion+ Muslims who are not stark raving crazy and who would never threaten the lives of cartoonists. This goes out to the relative handful of fanatical A-holes who would, as a warm welcome to kiss my infidelic ass!

P.s. Apologies to all for my utter lack of artistic skill.

That Cyclo will pretend he doesn't get it is no surprise. He always becomes increasingly narrow-minded and obnoxious when his ipse dixitism is exposed.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

Quote:

That Cyclo will pretend he doesn't get it is no surprise. He always becomes increasingly narrow-minded and obnoxious when his ipse dixitism is exposed.

2 points,

1 - I do 'get it.' I know why you think you are correct. I just don't agree. I also understand that people poking holes in your argument for which you have no response (at least, no response that leaves you not looking like a total ass, that is) is quite annoying. But that's more your problem then mine.

2 - you still don't understand what the words ispe dixit mean. And if you think that you do, perhaps you could attempt to point out exactly where I have engaged in this. I will remind you again that my personal opinions require no factual attribution whatsoever.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@failures art,

Quote:

... Muslims are no less intelligent or introspective than us enlightened Americans.

I think this does lead to reflection, and even if assumed to be adversarial, it opens a dialog. That dialog, even if heated, has great potential I believe. As much as this may seem like chum in the water for extremists, it is also a open mic invite for moderate Muslims to step up and demand control amongst the Islamic community.

I've checked the images on FB ("Everybody Draw Muhammad Day") as well. Many of them are clearly meant to offend either Muslims or Christians...

However: I've commented positively on several images posted by Muslims... and they've responded positively to me. We are now talking on Facebook.

There are thousands of posts from Muslims and non-Muslims alike on the Discussions page. I don't think many of the positive discussions would have taken place without the publicity generated by this event.

Whether the overall outcome will be positive or negative for all involved remains to be seen.

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@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Butrflynet wrote:

Browse through the nearly 8,000 images that have been posted to the Facebook group and tell me that this is still about defending free speech and not about an excuse to blatantly display bigotry.

Facebook Group's Images
So when I defend the KKK's right to assemble, march and speak; do you interpret that as defending their ideals as well?

It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "how". Butrflynet is objecting to the style of the pictures, not their existence. I have to agree with her.

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@failures art,

you have to hate the wetboro's beliefs, but you got to love their tenacity, and the children sing such adorable songs

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Three of the most offensive depictions of Mohammad were drawn by mullahs and taken to the ME to incite added violence. That was back during the Danish paper's controversy.

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Were there any actual death threats issued that prompted the idea for this campaign? As far as I've gathered, the extent of the "threat" was that some Muslim group, Revolution Muslim, conjectured that the South Park guys "will probably wind up like Theo van Gogh" as a result of their "stupid" act.

Huh?

This is what's prompted even people as highly refined as pseudo-vegans, and PETA partialists to forgo common courtesy and general respect for the adherents of a religion and post silly ASCII renderings of that religion's holy figure in the name of some sophomorically conceived "protest" movement? If anything will be the downfall of "Western society", it won't be fanatical religionists, it'll be "Western Society's" own fatuousness and inanity.

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@Cycloptichorn,

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:

That Cyclo will pretend he doesn't get it is no surprise. He always becomes increasingly narrow-minded and obnoxious when his ipse dixitism is exposed.

2 points,

1 - I do 'get it.' I know why you think you are correct. I just don't agree. I also understand that people poking holes in your argument for which you have no response (at least, no response that leaves you not looking like a total ass, that is) is quite annoying. But that's more your problem then mine.

But you haven’t even tried poking holes. You've consistently ignored the fact that I've acknowledged the sensitivities of a billion people angle from the beginning as having plenty of merit, and simply find it less compelling than defending everyman's inalienable rights angle. You, on the other hand make sweeping generalizations about the motivation of the people who consider this more compelling in the most obnoxious ways you can think of, as if that's a reasoned discourse.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

2 - you still don't understand what the words ispe dixit mean. And if you think that you do, perhaps you could attempt to point out exactly where I have engaged in this. I will remind you again that my personal opinions require no factual attribution whatsoever.

Cycloptichorn

As for your consistent Ipse-dixitism, you decided early on to hang your hat on the sensitivity angle, provided no credible argument for why this is more compelling and in fact; dogmatically insisted it so, while simultaneously ignoring every reasoned argument for to the contrary as well as completely ignored every freedom of speech angle as if everyone using it was simply covering for their blatant racism. Your opinion is fine, even reasonable in fact; but your dogmatic insistence that you're right (while barely providing any rationale for it) and that every other opinion is just self-serving bloviating is pure ipse-dixitism of the purest variety.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Butrflynet wrote:

Browse through the nearly 8,000 images that have been posted to the Facebook group and tell me that this is still about defending free speech and not about an excuse to blatantly display bigotry.

Facebook Group's Images
So when I defend the KKK's right to assemble, march and speak; do you interpret that as defending their ideals as well?

It's not a matter of "if", it's a matter of "how". Butrflynet is objecting to the style of the pictures, not their existence. I have to agree with her.

That's no argument with me. If all 8,000 of them were offensive, that wouldn't make mine offensive... and it doesn't make it reasonable to ascribe the motives of those posters to the persons on this thread who have clearly articulated their own motivation for participating.

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@OCCOM BILL,

Quote:

You've consistently ignored the fact that I've acknowledged the sensitivities of a billion people angle from the beginning as having plenty of merit, and simply find it less compelling than defending everyman's inalienable rights angle.

Your 'angle' is false, because what you are doing isn't defending anything except your sense of self-righteousness. This is the point that you refuse to admit, because it would remove your rationale for engaging in boorish behavior. And at the end of the day your desire is to show that it is your right to engage in boorish behavior - there literally is no greater point to your message at all. Congratulations! You have succeeded.

As I suspected, you were not able to provide specific examples of me committing ipse dixit, instead retreating into generalities. As you lack the ability to admit you are wrong, I will consider the matter dropped on your end out of lack of evidence to support your position. I would also remind you that you don't get to render people's arguments 'not credible' just because you declare them to be so. You may be of the opinion that my arguments are not credible, or are without merit; but your opinion in no way renders any argument of mine ispe dixit.

Okay, I'm bored with this thread and outta here. I would say in parting that you should respond to the long list (posted by someone above, don't remember who) detailing why actual cartoonists consider this event to be fatuous and self-gratifying in nature.

Cycloptichorn

1 Reply

@Cycloptichorn,

Right. Translation might be a problem is all you've offered for all your dogmatic blathering, while writing off references to S.C. decisions, constitutional roots, memorable speeches that have prompted action in year's past all as selfish self-righteousness. Not once did you take apart anyone's reasoning with any precision at all, but nonetheless now declare you've accomplished something. You are a cartoon, Cycloptichorn.

1 Reply

@OCCOM BILL,

OCCOM BILL wrote:

Right. Translation might be a problem is all you've offered for all your dogmatic blathering, while writing off references to S.C. decisions, constitutional roots, memorable speeches that have prompted action in year's past all as selfish self-righteousness. Not once did you take apart anyone's reasoning with any precision at all, but nonetheless now declare you've accomplished something. You are a cartoon, Cycloptichorn.

None of those examples matter, because what you are doing isn't protecting free speech - or anything. Every reference you make to 'protecting free speech' or 'unalienable rights' is a non-sequitur. It simply shows that you are deeply confused over the entire issue, and are mixing your anti-muslim sentiment in with some sort of odd pro-freedom point you are trying to make - as if anyone actually had challenged this!

You simply think that by sitting on your ass and making a little stick figure, you're proving something to someone. You definitely are, but not what you think.

Infrablue pointed out above, and you (and nobody else on your side of the argument) didn't respond, that there were no death threats made to the South Park creators as a result of their Cartoon. This whole issue is a giant straw man which is being used as an excuse to tell people who you disdain to go **** themselves. There's no honor in that, Bill.

I'd rather be considered a 'cartoon' by people then willfully display such assholish behavior on such terrible logic, Bill. When you actually do something to protect someone's rights, it will be a lot more then typing from your office in your spare time in a forum that hardly anyone will read and nobody will give a **** about.

Cycloptichorn

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@BorisKitten,

Quote:

And here's my "drawing":

That's....ahhhh.....not overdone......in the minimalist style.....ahhhh....is it a work in progress ??

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Why aren't we talking about "Draw Muhammad Day?" May 20th

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