13
   

Obama vs. No Child Left Behind

 
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 02:06 pm
@littlek,
I gotta run, but a fast google gets me this from 2007
Quote:
CONCLUSIONS: Inclusive education/mainstreaming has been promoted on two bases: the rights of children to be included in mainstream education and the proposition that inclusive education is more effective. This review focuses on the latter issue. The evidence from this review does not provide a clear endorsement for the positive effects of inclusion. There is a lack of evidence from appropriate studies and, where evidence does exist, the balance was only marginally positive. It is argued that the policy has been driven by a concern for children's rights. The important task now is to research more thoroughly the mediators and moderators that support the optimal education for children with SEN and disabilities and, as a consequence, develop an evidence-based approach to these children's education.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17411485

Getting citizens to believe what you want them to believe on social issues is not your job as a educator, thus normal kids in a mainstream environment developing empathy for handicapped people is not a benefit. How well you encourage people to be smart, to learn how to learn, is the yard stick of success. We are not the Soviet union yet, indoctrination is not the definition of education.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 02:18 pm
Hawkeye, your quote seems to indicate that the evidence supports inclusion, but that not enough evidence has been collected to make a sound judgment.

Wanting/expecting people to have some level of empathy is not a social agenda. Lack of empathy is actually pathological.
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 05:10 pm
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:
Then I think the solution would be to stop accepting federal funding right?

That would be half of the solution. The other half would be to stop paying the part of your taxes that pays for the federal funding of everybody else's[/url] schools. If you know a way of doing this without breaking the law, go for it! Otherwise, we'll have to hope the Federal government exits the business of funding schools. I'm not holding my breath, but one can always hope.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 05:20 pm
@aidan,
aidan wrote:
Thomas wrote:
Let principals individually make their own decision for their schools, compare notes after a few years, and see how it works.typo corrected, T

As someone who works in schools and has children who attend schools - no thank you. I think I'd rather go with a more organized and democratically decided approach.

How about the school district exercising democratic control by hiring and firing principals? That way, the voters can enact their will and the authority to run schools would still rest with the people who know how to run things.

aidan wrote:
Thomas wrote:
(Don't like what your school does to your kids? Put them in a different school!)

That sounds really reasonable and simple unless you're a single mom who can't afford the transportation to and from or childcare afterward because your child can't go to his or her neighborhood school.

And yet, this is a total non-problem in my old country, where parents will simply let their children ride to school in a city bus. If it demonstrably works in Germany, why is it impossible in America?
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 05:20 pm
@littlek,
actually, it says that there is no meaningfull data. Inclusion has been the policy accross America for 25 years and no one has bothered to see if it works for even the handicapped kids. Because working or not working does not matter, this is about trying to force a transformation of society, it comes from the same place that our idiotic rape laws come from.
Quote:
Overall, the weight of evidence reviewed in this paper cannot be said to provide a
clear endorsement for the positive effects of inclusion (see also Zigmond, 2003). Just 1%
of over 1300 studies published 2000"2005 reviewed addressed effectiveness and the
results from these studies were only marginally positive overall, although comparability
between outcomes for SEN and TD children could be interpreted as positive rather than
non-difference. Furthermore, the studies cover a range of ages and methods of inclusion;
used a variety of methods and produced evidence on a number of different outcome
variables. Taken as a whole, and with the pre-2000 evidence, which presents a similar
picture, there is a lack of a firm research base for inclusive education to support either
whether this is a preferable approach in terms of outcomes, or how inclusion should be
implemented.

http://docserver.ingentaconnect.com/deliver/connect/bpsoc/00070998/v77n1/s1.pdf?expires=1268696310&id=55615280&titleid=528&accname=Guest+User&checksum=CA10FD43D724A03951EC1A07DB6020D6

Quote:
Wanting/expecting people to have some level of empathy is not a social agenda. Lack of empathy is actually pathological


You are not a doctor either.....educate, that is enough of a job for one person.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 05:22 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
And yet, this is a total non-problem in my old country, where parents will simply let their children ride to school in a city bus. If it demonstrably works in Germany, why is it impossible in America?


sometimes quite young children......Americans would have a heart attack, and then they would accuse you Germans of neglect of your children if they knew what you do.
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 05:38 pm
@hawkeye10,
There is excellent heart medication in America, and American doctors are exceptionally happy to prescribe pills for everything. Maybe they could even prescribe a chill pill to American parents to prevent heart attacks in the first place.

(Sorry, that probably wasn't helpful. But I'm feeling cranky and sarcastic this evening.)
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 05:40 pm
Okie Dokie. I'm done talking to you, Hawkeye.
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 05:53 pm
@littlek,
whatever, but this nonsense that the solution to every alleged problem that comes down the pike is to employ the education system and/or the legal system has got to end......soon.
Merry Andrew
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 06:18 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye10 wrote:

Quote:
And yet, this is a total non-problem in my old country, where parents will simply let their children ride to school in a city bus. If it demonstrably works in Germany, why is it impossible in America?


sometimes quite young children......Americans would have a heart attack, and then they would accuse you Germans of neglect of your children if they knew what you do.


That's total nonsense. In my former home-town of Boston, for example, there were no school buses at all when I was a kid going to school there. Big yellow school buses were something you saw out on the hghways in rural areas, not in the city. If a school was too far to walk to, then we took a city bus or subway, paying the special student fare (I think it was either a nickel or a dime back in the 1950s). Yellow school buses were instituted as part of the school budget in the early 1970s when court-order school desgregation was instituted. It was felt unfair that a child should be ordered to attend a school not in his/her immediate neighborhood and then not provide free transportation.

I don't recall any parents having heart attacks because their children had to take regular public transportation.

I'm sure that Boston was not all that exceptional. School buses have traditionally been transport only in rural and wealthy suburban enclaves.
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  3  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 06:37 pm
Quote:
Dr. Sapon-Shevin: Mainstreaming was an attempt -- ill-founded and unsuccessful -- to place students with disabilities in typical classrooms, hoping that they might succeed. Mainstreaming basically says, "We won't change the regular classroom, the curriculum, the teaching, or pay much attention to the social environment, but if you can succeed here, you are allowed to stay." Not surprisingly, students with disabilities, many of whom had a history of school failure already, didn't do well, and then, their lack of success was seen as evidence of their inability to be with typical students.


Inclusion says, instead, "You have a right to be here. This is your classroom and your school as much as is any other student's. We will do what we need to make this classroom a safe, welcoming, and successful environment for you. We will make sure that the curriculum is broad, that the pedagogy meets your needs, and that the social environment is carefully structured to promote acceptance and welcome for you and for every other student in the classroom."



http://www.educationworld.com/a_issues/chat/chat206.shtml

If the "special" kid cant do the work then we change the work, if the "special" kid cant fit in socially with the class then we coerce the class into "accepting" the outcast. GREAT IDEA!

This is exactly the kind of looney tunes Bull **** that has convinced the rest of the world that we Americans have lost our minds...and they are correct.

We make these very stupid choices and then wonder why we can't compete with the rest of the world. In this case we spend a boatload of money and degrade the educational experience of 20+ kids so that 1 or 2 kids can exercise their "rights" to a sham inclusion into a regular classroom.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 06:49 pm
@Thomas,
Thomas wrote:


And yet, this is a total non-problem in my old country, where parents will simply let their children ride to school in a city bus. If it demonstrably works in Germany, why is it impossible in America?


Doesn't sound like a difficult solution. We used to do that, and it worked just fine. Maybe we've just dumbed our kids so far down in the past half century they can't find the bus stop.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 06:50 pm
@littlek,
littlek wrote:
One harsh reality is that every student has to pass the 10th grade state test in order to graduate. They can take the test over a couple times (it changes every year), but there's a limit. Some kids will never pass that test. I am not sure what alternatives there are.


Look what they're doing in Oregon, with permission of the U.S. Department
of Education.

Quote:
Oregon is moving its 10th-grade tests in reading, writing, math and science to the 11th grade, saying many students need another year of high school to learn the skills covered on the tests.

Last year, 46 percent of 10th-graders flunked that test, 45 percent failed the writing test and 42 percent failed in science.


http://www.oregonlive.com/education/index.ssf/2010/03/post_6.html

littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 07:27 pm
I just don't like that all-or-nothing 10th grade test. Why bump it up to 11th grade if you can retake it multiple times?
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 07:52 pm
Quote:
But perhaps most damning, Ravitch writes:

No school or school district or state anywhere in the nation had ever proved the theory correct. Nowhere was there a real-life demonstration in which a district had identified a top quintile of teachers, assigned low-performing students to their classes, and improved the test-scores of low-performing students so dramatically in three, four or five years that the black-white test score gap closed.

Yet suddenly this one theory is driving reform. This is why Obama wants states to gather more data. He wants to tie individual students' scores to individual teachers, so achievement can be monitored not only school by school but also classroom by classroom, and then teachers can be fired or given raises accordingly.

Ravitch, however, argues that the past eight years should leave us wary of relying solely on isolated test results for high-stakes decision-making. She isn't against tests per se"or even tests being used as one element in a more comprehensive evaluation system. Schools have to have some way of judging performance, and Ravitch praises the National Assessment of Educational Progress, or NAEP, given periodically to representative samples of students, as the gold standard. But the state tests developed under NCLB, she maintains, are terrible. They are devoid of real content and have created a culture of test-prep that is inimical to real education. Such arguments are not new"indeed, many of Ravitch's old opponents (back when she was on the pro-NCLB side) have been making this case for years.

http://www.slate.com/id/2247300/

And round and round we go on school reform, another year and thus the next great idea to save America from a broken education system.

here is an idea, how bout we test an idea before we implement it across the nation, spending a lot of money on it, claiming that it is THE SOLUTION?? Maybe? could we try it?
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 08:13 pm
@littlek,
littlek wrote:
So, I am more likely to pick up specifics about what I see in school every day and less about the details of NCLB.[...]

The reason more mildly disabled students go to regular ed schools and classes is because they get more out of it. They are more likely to try to achieve higher grades because their peers are. Often they are tested according to their disabilities (they have to write less, answer fewer questions, get more time to take tests, etc).

On this note, I'd be interested to hear about the group dynamics between the handicapped children and the "mainstream" children in your class. What are they like?

The reason I'm asking is that back in the 1990s, when I studied physics in Munich, I noticed that half of the female physics students came from one particular high school. As it happened, this was also the only public high school in Bavaria that was girls-only. The consensus interpretation was that peer pressure in co-ed high schools was discouraging girl nerds from coming out of the closet about their being nerds. In other words, the political preference for co-ed schools, which was intended to increase equality among students, had inadvertantly created new inequalities. Rather than empowering nerdy girls, they had locked them into traditional, stereotypical gender roles. I'm wondering if similar unintended consequences might be a problem in integrating handicapped children.

In addition, your description raises a more general question. You say handicapped children perform better in integrated schools because they have "regular" peers there. If peers are such an important driver of performance, what's the impact of handicapped peers on the "regular" students? Do the "regulars" achieve lower grades because in integrated schools, they work with lower-achieving peers? The logic of your argument would suggest that they do. What observations, if any, can you share about this?
boomerang
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 08:16 pm
@CalamityJane,
Hmmm..... how to put this nicely......

The only reason Oregon would consider such a thing is because our schools here are absolute ****. The 10th graders can't pass the test because the schools are ****.

Oregon has no sales tax so schools are funded on property taxes. If you live in an area with lots of rental property --even rental property aimed at solidly middle class people, your school will be even shittier than the others.

Mo's school is the ONLY elementary school in Portland that has a librarian. They have a foundation that raises money to pay the libraian, hire a music teacher and hire a gym teacher. The parents run the art classes -- if they didn't there would be no art.

Oregon has a 19% drop out rate.

Any district that looks to Oregon for inspiration is in trouble.

One way they look to combat this insane lack of funding is by trying to find a way to classify more kids as "disabled", mostly by labeling them ADD/ADHD. They get extra federal funds for every kid in SpEd.

Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 08:26 pm
@boomerang,
boomerang wrote:
The only reason Oregon would consider such a thing is because our schools here are absolute ****. The 10th graders can't pass the test because the schools are ****.

So glad you stuck to putting it nicely, Boomerang Smile
0 Replies
 
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 08:40 pm
@Thomas,
Quote:
On this note, I'd be interested to hear about the group dynamics between the handicapped children and the "mainstream" children in your class. What are they like?

Quote:
In my work as an educational advocate, I observe the children who are "included" in the general education classroom. What I see as an advocate and educator is a child who is sitting in a general education classroom with 29 other children but the child is isolated. This child usually has a dedicated aide, a person sometimes trained, sometimes untrained. This aide is to work only with that one child.

The result is that the child is often working one on one with the dedicated aide. The "dedicated" aide is often not helping to include the child in the activities of the classroom or the exchanges that occur between children in that class. The child may possess skills that are not known to the other children. If the child is an artist, the classroom teacher does not utilize this child's skill to establish communication with the child’s peers. How children in a classroom communicate with each other is a key in enhancing educational development. The classroom teachers are often more concerned with the child’s grades than the total inclusion of the child into the culture of the classroom or the total development of the child. There is often little or no communication between the general education classroom teacher, special education teacher and therapist. Therefore, the support to the child is often in isolation and therefore does not always enhance the child’s educational development.

Schools are meeting the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law. Children are included yet isolated at the same time.

http://www.iser.com/resources/21st-sped.html
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 09:11 pm
@Thomas,
How does the logic of my argument cause higher end kids to get lower grades? The regular ed kids set a benchmark - something for those with impulsive traits to aim for. Are you saying that regular ed kids are now going to start acting like they have Tourettes or dyslexia because one of their classmates does? Most 13 year-olds want to fit in, not stand out.

Perhaps I should be more specific since you used the work handicapped. I am working with students who have ADHD, some autism, specific trouble with math, reading, writing, or usually a combination of a few of the above. They aren't stupid. Most of them have intelligence in the normal range and a few have high intelligence. I'm not working with people with physical handicaps like those with low vision, wheelchairs, or mental disabilities that accompany more series learning disabilities. Those students are substantially more separate than the kids I work with. They attend most classes, but not all. They spend much more time outside of the mainstream classroom getting tailored help.

Regardless, the students I work with get individualized treatment from their peers. That's sort of my point. A kid bouncing off the walls and shouting out in class gets pretty much ignored because these kids have all been dealing with it for years. The class continues, there's no laughing and pointing (What goes on outside the class? I don't know). That being said, some of my kids are socially awkward. They're all 13 - many kids are awkward. Those kids, disability or not, are picked on. The kid getting bullied the most is one high-achieving, high stress, million-question-asking genius.

I have also read that same sex schools can be beneficial to kids. I don't know anything about it from personal experience.

 

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