13
   

Obama vs. No Child Left Behind

 
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 09:11 am
@CalamityJane,
So you support minimum standards of learning?

To my earlier question, do you agree with the premise of NCLB and just disagree with it's implementation?

What alternative would you propose (or have heard others propose)?
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 09:21 am
@littlek,
littlek wrote:
He's taking on Bush's school reform!


And littlek, according to wikipedia:

Quote:
The No Child Left Behind Act of 2001 is a United States Act of Congress that was originally proposed by the administration of President George W. Bush immediately after taking office. The bill, shepherded through the Senate by Senator Ted Kennedy, one of the bill's sponsors, received overwhelming bipartisan support in Congress.

The House of Representatives passed the bill on May 23, 2001 (voting 384-45), and United States Senate passed it on June 14, 2001 (voting 91-8).President Bush signed it into law on January 8, 2002.


Is it really fair to simply label this as Bush's school reform? 90% of our government voted for it.

It's everybody's school reform.
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 09:25 am
@maporsche,
Well, all public schools depend on either state or federal funding and the
guidelines of either one dictate the school system.

About 10 years ago, a handful of German parents started a charter school here in my town. They only had Kindergarten, 1st and 2nd Grade then, as state funding was small. Over the years they added classes and once they decided to add classes for middle school and needed more funding including a bigger school premise, the trouble started. The new school was located in a rough neighborhood, also non-German speaking children could apply, and a certain percentage of neighborhood kids (really rough area) was to be allowed to attend.

It didn't take long and major problems arose - the German teachers were overwhelmed with problems that didn't necessarily pertain to teaching like
drinking alcohol in class, violent behavior and so on. The SATs scores went
down and their ranking followed. I had to take my kid out of that school
as her education was compromised.

Had the school gotten funding without restrictions, they could
have continued their superior IB education and everyone would have
benefited.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 09:32 am
@maporsche,
What is minimum standards of learning to you?
No, I don't agree with NCLB. Not every child has the same abilities and
learns at a different level, and not every child is willing to put the necessary
effort into school.
The alternative is simple: if you don't do the work, if you don't put in any
effort you'll fail. It happens to all of us in our workplace, and with life in general - we will fail if we don't put any effort into it! So why don't we teach this our
children?
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 09:38 am
@CalamityJane,
I guess I really have no idea how NCLB works. Thanks for trying to help, but it will probably take more effort to understand that I can/am willing give.

Teachers aren't allowed to give failing grades?
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 09:51 am
@maporsche,
Hearing some of the democrats/republicans who voted for this in 2001 saying that 'we needed something at the time, and we can adjust it moving forward' sounds a lot like the argument FOR voting for healthcare now.

I wonder if we'll all be back 8 years from now complaining about the 'bad' policy that Obama enacted (really, him and congress). If it indeed produces un-intended negative results.

Oh well; we'd find something to complain about anyway; we always do.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 10:06 am
From Massachusetts' Governor Patrick's point of view:
Quote:
State firm on school quality
Will reject US standards if they don’t measure up

By James Vaznis, Globe Staff | March 15, 2010

The Patrick administration will not adopt national academic standards if they are lower than those established in Massachusetts, long championed as having among the most rigorous expectations, according to the state’s education secretary.

The proposed national standards, released last week, outline which English and math material should be taught at each grade level in the nation’s schools, as the Obama administration tries to prepare a future workforce to compete aggressively in a global economy.

That means, for example, in English every third-grader, regardless of where the pupil lives, would learn how to find the moral in a folk tale, fable, or myth, while in math all eighth-graders would learn to use the Pythagorean theorem.

The standards, under development for more than a year, are moving closer to Massachusetts’ benchmarks, but still need to be strengthened in some areas, said state Education Secretary Paul Reville, noting that education officials are still analyzing the national standards.

“I’m cautiously optimistic that this will end up in a positive place,’’ Reville said, “but we are not going to endorse anything that is not at least as rigorous as our own standards.’’

Debate is percolating over whether the proposed national standards would represent a major setback for Massachusetts, whose students routinely score in the top tier on national standardized tests.

The Pioneer Institute, a conservative-leaning public policy research organization in Boston, for instance, said the nationals standards, as written, would undo 17 years of work in Massachusetts that began with passage of the 1993 Education Reform Act to bolster the quality of the state’s schools.

“We are trying to sound the alarm,’’ said Jim Stergios, the institute’s executive director. “Massachusetts has the highest standards in the nation. Why would you want to change course?’’

The Obama administration’s push for uniform standards, which is being led by the National Governors Association and the Council of Chief State School Officers, aims to remedy an inequity in the American education system: Some states such as Massachusetts and California have set much higher standards than places like Mississippi.

While adopting the standards would be voluntary, the Obama administration has said that it intends to withhold millions of dollars in grants for low-income students in states that refuse to join the effort " regardless of the quality of their existing standards.

The administration also says states that embrace the standards will have a better chance of receiving potentially hundreds of millions of dollars in its “Race to the Top’’ competition, which rewards education innovation. Massachusetts has applied for $250 million from that program.

The Board of Elementary and Secondary Education, which sets the state’s academic standards, will probably discuss the national benchmarks at a special meeting later this month.

One member " Sandra Stotsky, a former associate education commissioner who oversaw the development of the state’s standards " ridiculed the national benchmarks, saying they rely too heavily on broad “empty skills’’ and lack rich academic content at each grade level.

“The national standards are not nearly as good as Massachusetts’,’’ Stotsky said. “They are generic skills that can be applied to any grade level that you want. They don’t give teachers any guidance about what makes a standard at Grade 8 any more difficult than at Grade 6.’’

Most states, except Alaska and Texas, initially signed on to help develop the standards. But some states known for high standards are now expressing hesitation about putting them into place unless changes are made.

“Our initial review would indicate in some areas Virginia standards exceed these draft standards, and in some areas we may have some gaps we may want to address,’’ said Charles Pyle, spokesman for the Virginia Department of Education. “There has been no discussion to walk away from our standards of learning. That would be a step that would be extremely disruptive to students, teachers, and instruction.’’

It is unclear whether states would have to adopt the national standards word for word or whether they could augment them with existing ones so long as the state standards were higher. Adopting new standards is unappealing in lean economic times because it can require the wholesale replacement of textbooks and additional training for teachers.

It also can prompt an overhaul of a state’s testing system, which often is based on prescribed standards, as is the case for the Massachusetts Comprehensive Assessment System.

The prospect of bringing national standards to Massachusetts is generating wide-ranging reaction among groups that work directly with school districts and some concerns that there would be a push to create a national test, based on those standards, that could replace the MCAS.

“In principle, national standards make sense because a child in Mississippi deserves to be taught at the same level as a child in Massachusetts,’’ said Anne Wass, president of the Massachusetts Teachers Association, the state’s largest teachers union. “But if the standards lower things in Massachusetts I wouldn’t think that is good.’’

Glenn Koocher, executive director of the Massachusetts Association of School Committees, said he found the standards to be “comprehensive’’ and on par with Massachusetts.

“The nation will finally march to the same beat as Massachusetts,’’ Koocher said.

Richard Stutman, president of the Boston Teachers Union, said he favors having national standards.

“I think a wider and broader measure would be better for the country so we know how we are all faring and how we can improve,’’ Stutman said. I think Boston public schools would measure near the top.’’

The public comment period, criticized by some groups as too short, ends early next month.

Reville said that Massachusetts has been held up as a model in the writing of the national standards and that the drafters have been receptive to the state’s recommendations for changes after previous drafts were made available. For that reason, Reville said he believes Massachusetts can still shape the final version.

“Since we are leaders in this area, we have a civic responsibility to participate in the process, but in the end we will have to make a decision [whether] to endorse these standards,’’ Reville said. “We shouldn’t be so arrogant to think we don’t have anything to learn from other states.’’
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 10:11 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:
I guess I really have no idea how NCLB works.

It works on the "Lake Woebegone" principle... The assumption that every child is above average.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 10:12 am
@hawkeye10,
Quote:
This will not be a debate.....


After the last page of posts, do you still think so? I think this is hot. It's complex, it is expansive, it is about children and our future as a country.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 10:22 am
@littlek,
Well, don't base anything on my questions.

I'm hoping to be a parent in a few years and am just trying to learn as much about these things as possible beforehand. I'm sure it's a fools errand to try to learn about a school system before you actually have any experience inside of a school system.

I don't even know enough to have formed a firm opinion either way.
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 10:26 am
@maporsche,
Your last point is an important one. The legislation is complex and very few people know a lot about it. Most teachers I speak to about it hate the rigidity or black-and-white-ness of the thing. But, in the next breath they'll say that there are some good aspects to it. We like the idea of equity across the board. But dropping funding for failing schools is ludicrous - largely, the failing schools need more sport than less!
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  2  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 10:49 am
@maporsche,
maporsche wrote:

I guess I really have no idea how NCLB works. Thanks for trying to help, but it will probably take more effort to understand that I can/am willing give.

Teachers aren't allowed to give failing grades?


Yes sure, teachers give failing grades but nothing happens. If they have
a certain amount of failing grades they're pushed off into special education
classes, yet they still graduate.

In Germany, if you have a certain amount of failing grades you have to
repeat the class. After 2 repeats you're transferred to a different school
who handles special education only. There the entire school works at
a different pace and different level to accommodate these children. I find
this a much better solution.

Now in the U.S. special ed kids are ridiculed and teased aside from rushing them through a curriculum so they can meet the requirements. It would
be so much better if special education doesn't have to abide to regular school standards.
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 10:55 am
Well, I don't think I agree with any system that does not allow exceptional students to be exceptional, or exceptional teachers to be exceptional.

I also don't agree with a system that allows students who are performing poorly to be ignored. I understand that not every student can (or is willing to) acheive even a basic level of education; but, from what I saw in my own schooling (graduated from HS 12 years ago), A LOT of 'bad' students were ignored, repeatedly, in all classes. I have a problem with that.

I have no idea what solution would meet both of those goals.

0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 11:21 am
@CalamityJane,
As others have said, I don't know all there is to know about NCLB even though I teach. So, I am more likely to pick up specifics about what I see in school every day and less about the details of NCLB.

A small portion of SpEd kids do go to other schools when public schools can't educate them properly. When they do go, public schools have to pay for tuition and public transportation. It's a huge expense. Sped is also a big expense, but not even close to schooling them out of district. Our elementary schools all serve sped kids, but one school has a bigger, more in-depth sped department that is supposed to serve those with more serious disabilities.

The reason more mildly disabled students go to regular ed schools and classes is because they get more out of it. They are more likely to try to achieve higher grades because their peers are. Often they are tested according to their disabilities (they have to write less, answer fewer questions, get more time to take tests, etc).

Students do indeed fail. I know two kids on my team alone who are failing at least one class for the year. These are kids with depressing home lives - they don't have disabilities. Sped kids get extra help outside the classroom and often have enough help and accommodations to not fail. Very few of these kids are not learning everything that everyone else is. They are just learning it several times until it sticks.

English Language Arts standardized testing includes writing skills, sentence structure, paragraph formation, different formats of writing, reading skills, etc. Our students are learning grammar. But, it's less effective because of the way we teach it. We're rethinking the process. Already we focus on reading more heavily in 6th and 8th grades and writing more heavily in 7th. The years alternate so that the skills can be taught deeper - they also correspond to the standardized tests given each year.

Math is different. Our kids are taught at a higher level than the standardized tests assess. We are shifting the math classes so that kids will learn at an even higher level. This despite the fact that research proves that many students aren't able to learn algebra until their brains have developed certain skills. This does not have anything to do with standardized testing - this has to do with us being a rich, smart, driven community. Parents and admin want kids to have had more math by the time they leave high school so they have a better chance to get into Harvard or MIT. I haven't heard from a single math teacher in our middle school that agrees with this change.

One harsh reality is that every student has to pass the 10th grade state test in order to graduate. They can take the test over a couple times (it changes every year), but there's a limit. Some kids will never pass that test. I am not sure what alternatives there are. I know there are a few kids who go to the nearby Tech schools. I'm not sure if they have to pass that test. My brother teaches at a school for blind students who also generally have other disabilities. Many of his kids will never pass the test. They have the option of buying into a full year of this private school (remember, if we ship kids out of public school we pay for their tuition) to get a diploma from them.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 12:46 pm
@littlek,
Quote:
After the last page of posts, do you still think so? I think this is hot. It's complex, it is expansive, it is about children and our future as a country


what to do to fix american schools has been a hot debate for 40 years, and we seem no closer to the answer so that will continue. That NCLB is not constructuve is agreed at this point.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 12:48 pm
@littlek,
Quote:
The reason more mildly disabled students go to regular ed schools and classes is because they get more out of it. They are more likely to try to achieve higher grades because their peers are. Often they are tested according to their disabilities (they have to write less, answer fewer questions, get more time to take tests, etc).


and the other 95% plus students in the class get less out of it.....not exactly a great idea. Plus a huge amount a money is wasted on personal minders for these kids who never should have been mainstreamed to begin with.
0 Replies
 
CalamityJane
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 12:48 pm
@littlek,
This sounds quite promising, littlek, and probably due to your community
involvement towards special ed it might be exceptional.

In my daughter's school, special ed is not promoted very well - now I don't
know exactly how things work in special ed there, I am relying on general info from the school and some students. I do know that these kids are teased a lot and my daughter got in trouble for defending one of the special ed kids (she went the wrong way though - thus the trouble...)

Hm, I am searching now to find out what happens to kids who do not pass
the 10th grade requirements. Can this be different from state to state?
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 01:11 pm
@CalamityJane,
Quote:
In my daughter's school, special ed is not promoted very well - now I don't
know exactly how things work in special ed there, I am relying on general info from the school and some students. I do know that these kids are teased a lot and my daughter got in trouble for defending one of the special ed kids (she went the wrong way though - thus the trouble...)


it is shown that when this sort of thing happens, as it always will, that the special ed students at the end of the day do no better main steamed than in the special ed schools. Nobody wins with mainstreaming, it was one of the dumber ideas among many dumb ideas from the reformers.

One of the worst aspects of mainstreaming is what the wear and tear of dealing with kids who never should have been in their classrooms does to teachers. It is not pretty, and they are not allowed to talk about it because of PC laws.....EVERYBODY loses with mainstreaming.
hawkeye10
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 01:19 pm
@hawkeye10,
mainstreaming was all about supporting the theory of individual rights, it was never about education, it was never about reality.
0 Replies
 
littlek
 
  1  
Reply Mon 15 Mar, 2010 01:46 pm
@hawkeye10,
hawkeye, can you point us to studies on mainstreaming sped kids?

I doubt you'd be interested in the tangential benefits, but regular ed kids who are in with sped kids are much more empathetic towards kids who are different (a point in case is CJ's daughter even if that did go awry). This is valuable to our society, in my opinion, as school was developed with the task of readying young people for productive life in society.
 

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