Knocking on heaven's door

Miles from nowhere
I guess I'll take my time
Oh yeah, to reach there

Look up at the mountain
I have to climb
Oh yeah, to reach there.

Lord my body has been a good friend
But I won't need it when I reach the end

Miles from nowhere
Guess I'll take my time
Oh yeah, to reach there

I creep through the valleys
And I grope through the woods
'cause I know when I find it my honey
It's gonna make me feel good

I love everything
So don't it make you feel sad
'cause I'll drink to you, my baby
I'll think to that, I'll think to that.

Miles from nowhere
Not a soul in sight
Oh yeah, but it's alright

I have my freedom
I can make my own rules
Oh yeah, the ones that I choose

Lord my body has been a good friend
But I won't need it when I reach the end

Miles from nowhere
I Guess I'll take my time
Oh yeah, to reach there.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Thomas wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:
I think all this boils down to the occasionally observable fact that happiness and even joy are not things that happen to us. They are, instead... choices we can make ...

That's a broad and confident statement, and certainly consistent with the teachings of your church, which once declared depression -- aka "melancholy" or "acedia" -- a deadly sin. And I'm certainly happy that your own life supports that statement. But plenty of people are unhappy because genuinely horrible things have happened in their lives, and plenty of others are unhappy because their neurophysiology is wired for depression and anxiety. Are you seriously telling them all they're just making the wrong choices?

I'm not passing judgement on anyone ... not even you Thomas. Instead I am referring to a very common dilemma that frequently besets us all - how to deal with the large and small challenges, setbacks and unpleasant events that beset out lives. A great deal of our subjective experience of these things depends on how we choose to see and deal with them. A page back I made reference to an excerpt from War and Peace that I have remembered ever since I read the novel many decades ago. I believe it bears on the question at hand and has something useful for most all of us.

I simply don't know what is and isn't possible for everyone, given their genetic makups and circumstances - and neither do you. However, I do know that many people waste considerable portions of their lives in entirely unecessary pain and anguish, and often over circumstances that other, far happier, people would find a great improvement. I had a friend, now dead, who lived here in the Bay area, a fellow former Naval Aviator, who was shot down in an AD-4 over Laos early in the Vietnam war, survived a gruesome imprisionment, escaped and made his way back under the most challenging conditions . His name was Dieter Dengler - a boy from Germany who never knew his father who was lost in the war, but who overcame every obstacle in his way and who truly inspired everyone who knew him. He finally succombed to ALS - a rather tough disease. However he never lost his his sense of discovery and joy in the experience of live available to him.

We all live our lives under the prospect of certain death. However, the choices we make have a great deal to do with the quality (to us) of our ecperience of the life available to us. I suspect you believe (apparently with Peter Singer) that there is a certain quotient of immutable objective suffering in life depending on one's circumstances and genetical makeup, and that "ethical" choices should be guided by the principle of reducing that suffering. I don't buy that at all. I have already seen far too much contrived and entirely unnecessary suffering on the part of foolish people; and, in stark contrast, far too much joy and inspiration from as many others who often bore far greater burdens and overcame far greater obstacles.

1 Reply

Calamity Jane and Georgeob1 -- I see what you're saying, disagree with it, but don't think anyone in this thread would benefit if we started arguing about it. So let's agree to disagree.

1 Reply

@Thomas,

Why not ? It seems to be very clearly associated with the title and context so far of this thread? It has to do with very basic questions of life of interest to all - certainly all who choose to look at this thread - and offeres every likely prospect of being beneficial..

That you may not want to dicsuss it is certainly both OK and entirely a matter of your own choice. However there is no external reason whatever not to discuss it here.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

I would like to hear those statements discussed because I too disagree with some (not all) of the things CJ, OB1 and RH have said or agreed with. I can't do it rationally or unemotionally tho so I'm not best placed right now to contribute in a healthy or constructive way, but I'd like to listen. I do hope people keep talking about it tho - I'd like to hear what others think or what their perceptions are.

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With that invitation -- I also have major problems with that (that is, I agree with Thomas).

I think those sentiments can be fine if they're directed internally -- if the person who holds these sentiments is applying them to his- or herself, in a gentle way*. I think those sentiments can be very, very dangerous if they're directed outward -- if people who ARE having a difficult time and ARE in a dark place are judged for that.

*I think people can also judge themselves harshly for trying to "decide" to be happy, and failing, and that this is another danger of that approach. (More than once I've found myself being the sole confidante of people who have felt pressured to put a happy face on a situation which is in fact extremely upsetting. In these situations, I've been the only one who's said, "you're right, that totally sucks. Tell me more." while others are saying "look at the bright side!"/ "it's all for the best,"/ "stay positive," yadda yadda.)

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

I do know that many people waste considerable portions of their lives in entirely unecessary pain and anguish, and often over circumstances that other, far happier, people would find a great improvement.
I have already seen far too much contrived and entirely unnecessary suffering on the part of foolish people;

George, Some of your comments have left me sputtering. I don't believe that I've wasted portions of my life in unnecessary pain and anguish. How can you judge what people feel? Emotionally and physically? How can you judge what's worse or better in the area of suffering? Everyone experiences things differently. Everyone has different thresholds. Everyone has different life experiences. Everyone also has different goals for themselves and their lives.

I understand how dys feels. I don't understand how you can suggest that his suffering is a choice. A decision. A waste.

I agree with Thomas. I don't know that this is the appropriate place to be arguing.

1 Reply

@Roberta,

I don't think you've wasted your life. On the contrary, my impression is that you have found humor and irony in the things that have beset you, and handled them very well, in part by discussing them openly and as objectively as you can. That involves courage and the will to go on.

I don't see why discussing that should be emphasized any less than the details of your difficulties that you have discussed at some length and - as it seems to me - to your benefit and the benefit of some others.

I haven't made any judgement about you, your experiences or your expectations of life. I have however, enjoyed your humor, your irony and what I have perceived as good natured endurance.

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@sozobe,

You're wrong if you assume I'd knock down dyslexia with my posts. I've spoken
to him numerous times on the phone and we are fond of each other (at least on my part) .I think he knows that I would not diminish his feelings of simply telling him to get over it and be happy.

There is no such thing as constant happiness - no one ever implied that, however there is a general outlook to life everyone has - and it is a choice one makes.

1 Reply

for me, it's a matter of perspective.

the serenity prayer and all that.

I gotta tackle each day what part of it I can chip away at. with a goal in mind (call it happiness, call it peace)

some days I just stay where I am.

some days it all goes back toward hell.

some, like yesterday, I explode through a barrier, and set new plans.

one day at a time.

but you have to be honest with yourself, and you cannot judge yourself too harshly...

I choose to focus on the positives, and let the negs ride quietly along for now.

1 Reply

@Rockhead,

Wise words Rockhead. Let me add a few more like observations --

Some of the best things that have happened in my life appeared very bad to me when they first entered the scene.

It is difficult to know yourself, even harder to truly understand others. However, it is almost always possible to connect with those you meet on some authentic level that benefits both.

I have learned that those who criticize my actions, while I still have time to correct them, are not my enemies: and those who merely encourage me when I am wrong are not really my friends.

No one is right about everything all the time.

Denial is the enemy of learning and wisdom.

Fear besets us all, but it rarely leads to wise actions. We must act in spite of fear.

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@CalamityJane,

Hey CJ

no no, it's not about assumptions of you knocking anyone - you wouldn't do that or diminish someones feelings. Neither would OB1 and RH...

it's the generalisation of kinda, "all things can be good if you let them and it's all about choices"...

which actually, I agree, everyone makes their choices

sometimes it doesn't feel like there are choices tho, the price is so high

CalamityJane wrote:

...Ultimatly, it was their choice to leave that horrible past behind and make peace with themselves. It's not an easy road to take, incredibly hard, I am certain of it, but it's a choice one makes.

sometimes it simply doesn't feel possible to make that choice and live with it - not if you have to leave someone behind knowing the consequences can destroy you or them. Not when other's mental health plays a part in those choices.

CalamityJane wrote:

Depression, anxiety and other neurophysiological diseases can be overcome/stabilized with proper therapy and medication. Again, it's a choice one makes to address these issues.

one can choose to live with decisions and acceptance of situations and address the issues and can still be happy about every day other things - but that sadness or anxiety doesn't disappear - therapy or medication can help but it can't make things right or take away the next thing that's going to happen or stop it from happening. It's tiring. It's exhaustive. It's like screaming and screaming and no-one can hear and it's then so silent, so high pitched that the bottle your'e in smashes. Then it's done. There's nothing left. It's all in pieces.

And it does pass. You move on and you get to the next day, you find strength or something that carries you forward - and it doesn't have to be merely "surviving the day", days, weeks, months can be and are great... the future is bright and that comes from the bottom of your heart... but it still is there. It's always there. The choice is to stop feeling or feel. Which one do you do?

How do you make those choices?

2 Replies

@Izzie,

I know where you're coming from, Izzie, and keeping your situation
in mind, I agree that the hand you were dealt with, is particularly difficult to
master. You're dealing with a daily uncertainty that you cannot control yourself - none of us can when it comes to our children. There is a tremendous hardship
that comes with it, but how you deal with it, is ultimately your choice, Izzie.

Don't think I try to diminish the anxiety and agony that comes with having
to deal with someone whose mental illness can be debilitating for all, I only
can imagine what it must feel like.

On the other hand, our (parents) state of mind - if positive or negative - is important to our children as I strongly believe that we teach them, either
directly or indirectly, in how to cope with life and its obstacles.

I can choose to be strong and work on the things that are in my power. I have overcome many things in my life, some very difficult ones, and with every
hurdle I have climbed, I emerged as a stronger person.

Believing in yourself is a huge key factor!

1 Reply

@Izzie,

Izzie wrote:

sometimes it doesn't feel like there are choices tho, the price is so high

sometimes it simply doesn't feel possible to make that choice and live with it - not if you have to leave someone behind ...

one can choose to live with decisions and acceptance of situations and address the issues and can still be happy about every day other things - but that sadness or anxiety doesn't disappear -

And it does pass. You move on and you get to the next day, you find strength or something that carries you forward - and it doesn't have to be merely "surviving the day", days, weeks, months can be and are great... the future is bright and that comes from the bottom of your heart... but it still is there. It's always there. The choice is to stop feeling or feel. Which one do you do?

How do you make those choices?

Very good questions, and I don't have specific answers. However, it appears to me that you have already answered the main ones for yourself.

We do go on as some sadness remains, including some poignant and perhaps painful memories. I believe it is the choice to go on and find some other joys and satisfactions that matters.

Life presents difficulties and challenges for us all. Moreover they don't appear to be any more uniformly or fairly distributed than does the willing disposition to deal with them as well as one can. We can never really know the joys and miseries of others - we have enough difficulty understanding our own. However, while we live there are joys and satisfactions to be had - if we have the will to seize them.

I think we have all experienced making our situations worse by bad or unwise choices, either in not dealing with what is before us or doing so badly: likewise I think we have all observed others doing well with what they have and doing badly as well. These ultimately are choices. It is better to make good ones than bad ones. It is absurd to simply write it off as some kind of mechanistic thing in which we have no volition or choice at all, or to rail against the fate that imposed this on us, while at the same time insisting it has no meaning.

0 Replies

@JPB,

My Grandfather went much the same way, bed-ridden and very sickly. He refused all visitors once he took that final turn for the worst, because he didn't want to be remembered that way. I am certain he was simply waiting to die.

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I get the impression that Dys is talking about how to deal with the approach of having to make end of life decisions rather than how to deal with having to make day-to-day choices during the process of living.

Not sure if he is even referring to himself specifically or if he is trying to talk about the decisions being made in regard to his ailing parents; maybe both.

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@CalamityJane,

The thing is...

as Dys has opened a knocking door...

one can be blessed with a great many things... hardship isn't always about not having material things, cars, house, money... or good health... there are so many things that can be wonderful and good and positive, rewarding... without those things, or with ill health

but the one thing I can't control is the way I feel about my child

you know, I would give everything to have some control on that one feeling - not to have made a choice on the welfare of one child over the welfare of my other, not to have made that awful choice. I will never know if I made the right decision. I can turn it either way - right or wrong. It will never be right.

I know it's a choice now on how to deal with it or live with it - at the moment... I don't know if I can do either.

dyslexia wrote:

Do the medications I take ritually alter the person I was? Are my thought really my thoughts or are they the chemicals that course and curse throught the membranes of my blood, my heart, my brain? Everything I am offered seeks to deliver me from me from the weight of who I was and lead me on another path of who I am becoming; a pharmaceutical somatic automaton.

pills, pills and more pills. It's a choice whether to take them. If you don't - you can die. Pretty much the same as you can step off the pavement and into the road and get knocked down if there's a car coming. It's a choice. When you 'live' taking medication to make life more bearable for whatever the reason - the choices lessen of the control you have over your life. Of course, your quality of living can improve, which is the aim, but you lose control of "normality" because those boundaries change all the time. Those people who are part of those changing boundaries... sometimes they go and everything changes again because illness can be a burden not just for the person who has it, but for the person who has to watch it.

Quote:

I do need some sense of tomorrow but it is not a strong sense, it is not gravity; it is more akin to "do I buy the good tea or is twinnings adequate." Will I some day be able to tie my shoes or keep wearing the slip-ons?

Reality - it sounds so simple, it's so debilitating. You can choose to be positive, but being positive can be just as tiring as the illness at times.

Quote:

I suppose I want to be remembered but I no longer know what I should be remember for.

If I were gone tomorrow, I know what my son would remember me for. I haven't seen him for nearly a year. There is no peace in that or getting the weekly carers email to tell me he wants to "end it".

Silent screaming... I finally found somewhere say it out loud.

Apologies Dys for doing it here.

I think we all have our hurdles - it doesn't matter what size they are, it's how you jump over them or knock them down... or maybe even sidestep them. Yep, it's about how we deal with them. I intend to enjoy the good things in my life and to make the most of every opportunity put before me. I miss my son tho, every day.

can't see for tears. gone from here now. will carry on sailing.

(Twinings is the good tea)

0 Replies

@dyslexia,

Well, Bob, when you are done with all the metaphysical questioning, take a moment and raise a glass of chilled Vinho Verde with some cheese, maybe Velveeta..

I'll be thinking of you, my friend.

1 Reply

@dyslexia,

I've been going through similar medical problems for nearly a year, but not as painful as what Dys has experienced. Dys has Diane to live for, which has changed his life.

When it was discovered last December that I had blood clots filling my right leg and my left lung, my physician didn't ask me before he called for an ambulance to rush me to the hospital. I called my daughter (Butrflynet) to adviser her of the situation but had no time to discuss the options. So I never had a chance to review my own living and death desires. I knew blood clots in the heart or brain could kill me rapidly. I also knew brain clots could cause strokes and the disabilities they create. Long ago I had decided that I did not want to live beyond the time I could take care of myself and be mentally in good shape. I took the chance that the blood clots would not reach my brain. If they reached my heart, that would be the end---thankfully without suffering. I have always said, once my children were raised, that I didn't mind dying as long as I did not have long suffering because I'm a chicken.

I have accomplished most of the life goals I set for myself until I retired at age 72 in California and still had new adventures in New Mexico to experience. I'm a very courious person and always longed to learn how things in the world and the universe turn out. My physicial activities are limited but still tolerable. I can live with the level of pain I experience. I greatly love my daughter (Butrflynet) and my son---and my two doggies Dolly and Madison. They can take care of themselves and Butrflynet will care for the doggies. I want to live only as long as I and those I love have reasonably good lives. I don't want to be a burden to anyone.

I will be 81 in July. As a child, I always thought I would die young because my father died when I was 7 months old and my mother died when I was 1-1/2 years old. You can't imagine how surprised I am to reach such an old age. But I have two aunts that reached 100. I wouldn't want to live that long disabled. But if I could dance with friends and have passionate sex with lovers, I'd be willing to risk it to 100.

BBB

0 Replies

@dyslexia,

I've been going through similar medical problems for nearly a year, but not as painful as what Dys has experienced. Dys has Diane to love and live for now instead of just for himself.

When it was discovered last December that I had blood clots filling my right leg and my left lung, my physician didn't ask me before he called for an ambulance to rush me to the hospital. I called my daughter (Butrflynet) to advise her of the situation but had no time to discuss the options. So I never had a chance to review my own living and death desires. I knew blood clots in the heart or brain could kill me rapidly. I also knew brain clots could cause strokes and the disabilities they create. Long ago I had decided that I did not want to live beyond the time I could take care of myself and be mentally in good shape. I took the chance that the blood clots would not reach my brain. If they reached my heart, that would be the end---thankfully without suffering. I have always said, once my children were raised, that I didn't mind dying as long as I did not have long suffering because I'm a chicken.

I will be 81 in July. I have accomplished most of the life goals I set for myself until I retired at age 72 in California and still had new adventures in New Mexico to experience. My physicial activities are limited but still tolerable. I can live with the level of pain I experience. I greatly love my daughter (Butrflynet) and my son---and my two doggies Dolly and Madison. They can take care of themselves and Butrflynet will care for the doggies. I want to live only as long as I and those I love have reasonably good lives. I don't want to be a burden to anyone.

As a child, I always thought I would die young because my father died when I was 7 months old and my mother died when I was 1-1/2 years old. You can't imagine how surprised I am to reach such an old age. But I have two aunts that reached 100. I wouldn't want to live that long disabled. But if I could dance with friends and have passionate sex with lovers, I'd be willing to risk it to 100.

BBB

0 Replies

Knocking on heaven's door

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