DECLINES IN FISH STOCKS WORLDWIDE_the ecology of exinction

@msolga,

Wanna know why Im up at 4AM? (it has nothing to do with the sausage,cheese, onion and jalopena pizza we had for supper).

Good advice Im used to having really substantive arguments with folks about things and , even though we may disagree (for the most part) Im always accosted with thought provoking counter evidence
EXCEPT for Dr Ionus. He seems to be satisfied only with calling names and telling folks that they need medical attention, or that their meds need "upping", then he abandons any semblance of real substantive argument and leaves me covered with personal insults.

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@farmerman,

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Wanna know why Im up at 4AM? (it has nothing to do with the sausage,cheese, onion and jalopena pizza we had for supper).

Actually, I was wondering about that, farmer. Though that pizza doesn't exactly sound the best of sleep enhancers. Wink

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Good advice Im used to having really substantive arguments with folks about things and , even though we may disagree (for the most part) Im always accosted with thought provoking counter evidence

Best advice I can give.
I can see the amount of effort that you've put into responding to Ionus's posts (I certainly know personally about the amount of time & energy involved in responding to this sort of crapolla. Not worth it, let me tell you! )

Me, I think it's best to see Ionus as being in some sort of troll-mode in these sorts of encounters.

I have been more than a little impressed by your patience & your good grace in the circumstances. Now, if I were you, I'd just drop responding to such frivolous posts. They are a waste of your time, your energy & your knowledge.

Can I just say, though, I've found this thread very interesting & informative. Thanks, it's been great (till Ionus).

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@msolga,

Now go back to bed & sleep! Smile

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@msolga,

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Actually, I was wondering about that, farmer. Though that pizza doesn't exactly sound the best of sleep enhancers.

I, (myself) helped deliver 2 sets of twin lambs tonite. Weve had a really dreadful weather day and thats usually the time that expectant sheep drop their lambs. Im sitting here just thumbing through the A2K at night folks (and The Oz guys who post in their mid day-Its still SUnday right?)

WE had two sets of really nice ewe lambs , my wife (the top hand and the boss of the outfit) is sleeping cause she helped deliver over 6 sets of lambs today and she had 2 difficult births and hadda assist pretty close. Weve been eating out of Chinese takeout boxes and Dominos pizza (I drive the 20 miles to the nearest shopping center ).

Its a buay time at the farm. Nothin like the big sheep operations that weve seen out west or that you have in AUstralia, but my wifes business is premium yarn from these fine wool breeds.

Ill be up till about 8 AM when the boss takes over . Then I can sleep . Now, I have to keep my eye on the barn cam. Too bad I dont have a clue how to set up a BARNCAM for folks to look in on. NAAAH forget it, Id probably have to be out cleaning the barn if my wife knew that people would be looking in via the web.

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@farmerman,

OK, so it wasn't the pizza. Smile

I must say, the thought of all those new lambs is rather nice!

One could almost say it's "cute"! Wink

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@farmerman,

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Only you and one other had entered the term "cute" into what you call an argument.

If you had ever seen a WWF ad you wouldnt doubt the pulling power of cute.

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HoweverThat has no bearing into the program to save these species as important members of ther own ecosystem.

That is exactly what is being used to gather money. This means if it is not cute, how will it get money ? assuming we have limited money.

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The only reason that your not calling me "**** for brains" is because youre using that at present in describing no less than 2 other members .

No, your nickname when I lose it is country bumpkin. Setanta is **** for brains and is the only one I call that.

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Ever since you expressed your professional opinion that I seek help to treat my Alzheimers, Ive been working hard to exercise my memory , so Im extra sensitive of overuse of any one pejoritave at a time

It was an opinion based not on professional knowledge but personal experience. It was not an opinion that you had that specifically but that you should be wary of a downturn in health after a serious injury if you are over 60 as in the example I gave of President Reagan. It is regrettable, but once over a certain age the body and mind have trouble recovering from severe blows. I said it out of shock that you were having trouble following the argument. I deeply apologise if it caused you distress but I think of you as a tough individual. It would have been cleverer of me to think twice and say once. Part of my quick fired reaction to personal attacks is I have had nothing but from this forum. I approached it to learn and contribute to debate and all I have got was the briefest explanation and then a personal attack. It seems this forum is populated with people who think they know everything and if someone has a different opinion then the best approach is to sneer at them with contempt.

What I have put forward is the current approach is not working for the whole planet. If all we want to do is save one at a time, then we will run out of time. I can hardly call upon expert opinion when institutions like greenpeace are financing the reports and they are the problem. Of course they justify their methods...would anything else be expected ? Your approach is too say I am a quiter..well I am still here...I have not given up on ecology or conservation, I am advocating a different approach. Ignore the usual pour money into cutsie animals and start demanding real change from politicians. We need a unified world position on conservation of the oceans that includes pollutants from all countries. Rich and poor...anyone who says the poor arent responsible is avoiding being called a nigger basher...hundreds of miles out to sea you can pick up garbage from poor countries. Now you just watch some apologist try to say you can do the same with rich countries..well you cant. The rich are producing far smaller though considerable amounts of garbage. Toxins and complex molecules that take forever to break down.

People need to be aware of real dangers and losing species that look pretty is not a real danger to the planet.

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@farmerman,

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EXCEPT for Dr Ionus. He seems to be satisfied only with calling names and telling folks that they need medical attention, or that their meds need "upping", then he abandons any semblance of real substantive argument and leaves me covered with personal insults.

That's a good laugh fm. Check out the evolution threads and see yourself partaking in a blitz of those very things. And worse.

Ionus has asked you a number of interesting questions. Here's one--

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. Since the second world war, how many species in the world have become endangered compared to those that have been removed from the endangered list and how many have become extinct ?

The "cute" argument is well known and respectable.

Ionus has offered a population reduction suggestion which is really the only sensible response to the problem. You won't go near it. And not just population reduction but also lifestyle reductions which you are a potentate at.

He has offered reforestation of Europe and other places instead of complaining about other countries cutting their forests down.

He's right about Greenpeace too. Anybody can witter about the cuties whilst collecting money off sentimental innocents and not having to actually engage in the complex negotiations involved nor take any responsibility for any damn thing at all. I bet Greenpeace has a heavier carbon footprint than Chad or Greenland. I bet all those guys who chase whaling ships are flash Harrys on shore.

Ionus is a welcome visitor to A2k. He cuts to the core. You piss-ball about while smiling with satisfaction when the Dow jumps 2% or land prices rise.

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@spendius,

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Weve been eating out of Chinese takeout boxes and Dominos pizza (I drive the 20 miles to the nearest shopping center ).

There you go. Which of your vehicles do you take? You drive that far to "eat out" too. You were going to fly to Chicago to spend a few hours with A2Kers who had flown in. You have a bloody boat to doddle up and down the waterways and show off. You're a poseur.

If you have taken Olga in you haven't me or Ionus. "Cute" is your essence.

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@spendius,

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That's a good laugh fm. Check out the evolution threads and see yourself partaking in a blitz of those very things. And

Youve been called revisionist before by others. AS I recall, namecalling in the Evolution threads was begun by you. It was that very thread that won you my own IGNORE (a status which you own even till today). SO please do not cry me a river spendi. You only reap what youve sown .Many others have ignored you for your rudeness and your need to have every thread about you. In this thread I just clicked on:

As far as all the other irrelevant stuff. You took my curragh **** from the very thread that I started about building a boat. Then you seemed to post it on any thread you felt licensed. I dont mind at all, I think youre "cute" (albeit a little strange).

Time for you to go back on

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User ignored (view)

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@Ionus,

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What I have put forward is the current approach is not working for the whole planet. If all we want to do is save one at a time, then we will run out of time. I can hardly call upon expert opinion when institutions like greenpeace are financing the reports and they are the problem.

SEE, being argumentative without malice and "striking out" isnt hard. If you keep the above up and , as a means of debate, follow such opinion with what your own chosen experts have said, you could be a good debate oponent (or even a colleague in areas that we both are not "expert". I certainly am not a wildlife ecology expert but Ive read much by EO Wilson, Rachel CArson,John and Paul Craighead, PAul Ehrlich (not the biochemist ), Commoner, Meng,Martin, Whittley, Cook, Alexander,Schaller, Devore (and probably many others whose names I cannot recall because Im tired). I find the arguments that these individuals make as compelling . Im willing to keep up this discussion with you only if you dispense with the name calling (which in turn will keep me from reciprocating ).

My argument, still on the table is that , WRT SEAFOOD (which is the overarching topic here). Habitat destruction and extinction of target fish are almost mutually exclusive. ANadromus and catadromus fish pass by their respwctive instar ebvironments to become pelagic ocean fish for a period of time. SAving these is a species based effort and any environmental cleanups will have to be taken on as international efforts (so far noone is thinking about cleaning up the "garbage gyre" of the PAcific, (A phenom that is killing sea mammals and turtles) . I think that e can target certain components of the environments in example and work on them. At the same time we target individual collapsing fish species. This is, to me , the only way its gonna work.

AS far as the Canadian argument that Harp eals kille fish, that is bullshit that was found out by the MArine Science Centre at Dalhousie . The actual story is that killing Harp seals interferes with the control of pelagic fish that prey on cod fry. SO, the web of life states that
1IF e kill harp seals

2We kill the means which control predators on codfish

3Which results in cod fish collapsing even more

Their data is prettuy compelling.It is this Approach to environmental control that can work. WE have to learn how these species interrelate and while were trying to restore dcodfish, MAYBE , we can then expand that effort to include controlling the hunt on seals until some sort of stability in the environment can be achieved.

This is the argument I was trying to forward in the whale "morlity" thread also. I say that we dont really know what the effects that hunting is having on the overall health of the Minke whale. QWe know its reducing genetic diversity which ,akes the whale a "prisoner" to only a small component of their environment (However, this too we dont know).
Lest watch and see what the efforts to control and restore the codfish will result. This is ongoing work that is "Species specific".

You say its not going to work, I dont have anybasis to accept or refute your opinion. Im just a "data" kind of guy. If you have any other specific suggestions,lets vettem in our little forum. I love exchanging ideas.

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@farmerman,

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Youve been called revisionist before by others. AS I recall, namecalling in the Evolution threads was begun by you.

Typical fm technique. He makes an assertion which he knows nobody will check out (or he had better hope so) and then he builds the rest of his post based on it being true, which it isn't, on the basis of him have asserted it.

And then he absolves himself from responsibility with a cute phrase like "As I recall".

I have been on and off his Ignore faster than Tiger Woods on a spree. He uses Ignore whenever I get him mad because I've stumped him. Then he finds out how boring life is without me and takes a peek and away we go again until next time I run rings round him as I did in the post he is pretending to respond to in that one.

He'll be selling juicy spring lamb cutlets next and using eagles to fake being an animal lover.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

SEE, being argumentative without malice and "striking out" isnt hard. If you keep the above up and , as a means of debate, follow such opinion with what your own chosen experts have said, you could be a good debate oponent (or even a colleague in areas that we both are not "expert".

You have to laugh. fm has been leader of a gang bullying me for years Io with insults galore, thousands of them, and some beyond the pale. He's not used to two opponents so he is trying to suck up to you and render you tame.

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@spendius,

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You have to laugh. fm has been leader of a gang bullying me for years Io with insults galore, thousands of them, and some beyond the pale. He's not used to two opponents so he is trying to suck up to you and render you tame.

Notice that Ive not said anything to draw spendi into a rage. I rest my case.

Thank you spendi.

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@farmerman,

Me!!?? In a rage. I've never felt rage in my entire life, as I recall. I'm told I behaved a bit awkwardly when I was weaned but I think I was probably indulged a bit too much.

The Ignore didn't last long did it?

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Perhaps the "children" should all grow up and put ignore on ignore, instead of using it as some sort of schoolyard taunt.

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@JTT,

It's an evolved mode of discourse JT. Ostriches use it I've read.

And some ladies too although they are not as ostentatious with it as ostriches are.

Except on Blackpool Promenade in High Season.

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@farmerman,

Quote:

SEE, being argumentative without malice and "striking out" isnt hard. If you keep the above up and , as a means of debate, follow such opinion with what your own chosen experts have said, you could be a good debate oponent

This is called condescending and is done by the arrogant and frightened.

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Ive read much by EO Wilson, Rachel CArson,John and Paul Craighead, PAul Ehrlich (not the biochemist ), Commoner, Meng,Martin, Whittley, Cook, Alexander,Schaller, Devore (and probably many others whose names I cannot recall because Im tired).

This is called name dropping and it has nothing to do with
1) whether or not these authors were right
2) whether or not you understood what they said
3) what influenced these writers, apart from pure science

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Im willing to keep up this discussion with you only if you dispense with the name calling (which in turn will keep me from reciprocating ).

You started the name calling by insulting me from what was said in another thread which clearly had nothing to do with this topic, but was a part of your general insecurity in debating me.

Spendi understood every word and could extrapolate where my points would lead and what they meant. What happened to you ? Slow down...no speed reading...think about what I say and dont just look for things to contradict.

Lets ignore the piece-meal approach and get all countries to sign off on insecticides and excessive use of fertilizers. This is the bottom line and it will have to be done eventually or whales will be swimming in a dead ocean, albeit not for long.

Lets stop an open market where all you have to do is invent some new throw away device and convince people to buy it. Put a freeze on items made of non-recyclable materials. How much garbage generates poisons when they could be used for recycling ?

Stop all this bullshit about Global Warming and build Coal Power Stations for the third world. Develop the third world. At the moment, the greenies want to give a hospital a solar power unit. This means they can either run the fridge with the medicines inside (fairly essential for the tropics) or the operating theatre lights. The Japanese built a brand new hospital in Port Moresby, but PNG doesnt have the money to run it so it sits empty. Testing blood donations for AIDS in african countries costs more than their annual medical budget. They need to follow our development, but avoid the big mistakes we made. Little things like the push bike scheme are very important but under funded. Fast track tropical disease research, if not for them than for us to prevent the next pandemic.

Stop the emotional bullshit gripping the world by reporting the science, not the opinion of greenies. Solar powered cells, by the time they are manufactured from resources mined, have a life span with inspections, and are then discarded are negative to the environment. Yet some think they are doing good to use solar power. It is simply not ready.

That is just a few to start with. There are many things that could be done, but fools want save crap like the Panda, an animal so dumb it wont breed in the wild let alone zoos. It hasnt lost habitat, nature gave up on it but fools want to save it.

If we lose some major species it will shock people out of their belief things are proceeding well. They are not. We are losing.

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More than 800 species have disappeared over the past 500 years.
Nearly 17,000 plant and animal species are known to be threatened with extinction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extinct_Australian_animals
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinct_animals

The problem with trying to fix everything ionus is that it is financially socially and politically unworkable, however, piecmeal aproaches can and do work.
In addition once a pest species be it plant aor animal (think rabbits, foxes, cats and cane toads) is endemically established it is simply not possible to totally eradicate it and if it was possible it would create more problems down the line. ie if you erradicate foxes, rabbit populations boom.
It is financially socially and politically acceptable to eradicate pest plants and or animals from small areas.
So we have a choice do nothing because that is what the financially socially and politically unworkable solution you propose would end up being
or
choose the piecemeal approach.

Spendi... pull your head in! you've contributed nothing (as usual) to this thread. Your kind of Englishman equiped with a superiority complex fucked Australia and a few other countries as well right good. We don't need your help to fix the problems the English created.
better yet send me your address. I'll come over and shut your gob for you.

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@dadpad,

Quote:

The problem with trying to fix everything ionus is that it is financially socially and politically unworkable, however, piecmeal aproaches can and do work.

I have yet to see the piece meal approach catch up with the problem, let alone work and it is only saving things that can attract money. Do you agree that if something can not attract money it will not be saved ?

Perhaps you should explain to me the piecemeal approach to saving the microscopic life in the oceans.

As for Spendi, he did a stirling job of summation for me. I dont think y0ur racism towards him is anything but counter productive.

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@Ionus,

Ionus wrote:

Quote:
The problem with trying to fix everything ionus is that it is financially socially and politically unworkable, however, piecmeal aproaches can and do work.

Perhaps you should explain to me the piecemeal approach to saving the microscopic life in the oceans.

Lets start with reducing fertiliser runoff and topsoil erosion. Those farmers that can afford to, plant shelterbelts along drainage lines. Farmers alter fenclines to protect existing vegetation where it is economically viable to do so. Then set about enhancing or replicateing vegetaton constructs.
but they only do this where it is economically viable to so. In some cases harvestable primary products are necessary to make this kind of change.
governments have been throwing money at this kind of project for years yet it is still piecemeal.

The numbat is Western Australia’s mammal emblem, a status which gives it widespread recognition and may well have saved it from extinction.
Following the numbat’s decline, this species has been listed as Vulnerable on the IUCN Red List (1), and Vulnerable on the Environment Protection and Biodiversity Conservation Act 1999 (EPBC Act) (3). Active intervention by the Australian Department of Environment and Conservation (DEC) has fortunately improved the numbat’s chances of survival.

I'll be back.

1 Reply

DECLINES IN FISH STOCKS WORLDWIDE_the ecology of exinction

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