Public school zero tolerance policies.

@roger,

I wasn't comparing them, just illustrating that the argument for regulating the behavior and not the tool is not axiomatic, and that it really does depend on the tool itself sometimes.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

evaluating behaviour is much more subjective than regulating the carrying of objects. You are right back into the legal system not being strong enough to allow for the proper outcome. The courts of today would rule that the subjective system can be assumed to be not a uniformly applied system, thus is not allowed.

0 Replies

@maporsche,

Quote:

First off, I don't think one death = a problem.

Perhaps it might not be considered a problem in the US, maporsche, where people have possibly become rather accustomed to school killings, on a fairly regular basis? But I was talking about Australia & this has definitely not been a feature of our schools. People are very shocked that such a thing actually happened in a school, which is supposed to be a safe environment.
Knives are the recently adopted "weapons of choice" of street gangs. Their growing usage has caused considerable harm & grief on our streets in recent times (9 knifings reported last weekend), we certainly don't want this spilling over into schools, too.
One death may not be alarming, or considered a problem to you, but it is certainly caused alarm here. This sort of thing is pretty much unheard of in the Australian school environment (in fact I can't think of any other examples of such killings in schools at all), We certainly don't want this to become an established feature of our schools, as you might understand.

Quote:

I will help my child find ways around all of these rules (and there are many) so that he'll be able to protect himself from bullies if need be. If I find that he is a bully himself, I will take the appropriate action.

Apparently (from media reports) the child who knifed & killed the other child was responding to being bullied. Presumably by the child who died? (That part wasn't spelled out by the media reports, but it's a reasonable assumption to make, under the circumstances.)

0 Replies

It's a sign of the times. When I grew up I or anyone I knew didn't bring play guns to school. Schools want to get a message out to the youngsters, no tolerance for even thinking of guns.

0 Replies

@Thomas,

Quote:

I can and do understand that; I simply disagree with you about the implications. I have nothing against knives carried by non-bullies for their own protection. If a well-muscled bully preys on a weaker student, I don't care if the victim pulls out a knife and stabs the attacker. Teachers can't be everywhere. In fact, they shouldn't be everywhere -- school, after all, is not a prison, and teachers aren't prison guards. Therefore, violent self-defense will always be part of deterring schoolyard bullies. If non-aggressive students carry pocket knives for this purpose, they have my blessing. Limits on knife-carrying are a matter of degree for me, not a matter of prohibition.

Please read my response to marporsche above, Thomas.
I have a huge problem with either of them carrying knives . Which generally seem to be of the domestic variety, with younger people.

I wouldn't have liked to have been a teacher in that school when that happened. Even though I know we can't possibly be everywhere, the thing is, when trouble happens in a school, there is often the (sometimes convenient, buck-serving) expectation from the authorities that somehow you should have been aware & monitoring the situation. I don't know if that was the case in this incident, but but it certainly has been the case on a number of other occasions I'm aware of. You seem to have little idea of the responsibilities teachers must wear as part of their work, the constrictions they work under.

I have had to assist in breaking up physical fights with students on a few occasions, some in the not so recent past. (Part of the job) Pulling students apart & such. The thought of being involved in something like this when knives are involved, is horrific. I would much rather the knives were simply not allowed in an environment which is meant to be safe for children & teachers, too.

As for anti-bullying programs .. yes I agree, schools do need to do this. And do it better. And many do. However, of course such problems are not exclusive to schools. We inherited the problems from the broader community, where it was already a serious problem. How do you propose we treat the community problem? Solutions are not nearly as easy as they look.

1 Reply

Tee hee hee....

Each week in Mo's class they have to write a little something about something they'd read this week. Mo wrote:

Quote:

This week we read the news about a kid that brought a toy gun to school. He got into a lot of trouble.
MY!!! MOM!!! said it was silly that he got in that much trouble.
I am never going to bring a toy to school.

His teacher replied:

Quote:

Wasn't that amazing? I agree with your mom!!!

1 Reply

@msolga,

msolga wrote:

However, of course such problems are not exclusive to schools. We inherited the problems from the broader community, where it was already a serious problem. How do you propose we treat the community problem? Solutions are not nearly as easy as they look.

I propose that you don't treat the community problem, because you can't. As you suggest in your answer to maporsche, there is a public expectation that schools cure society's ills. But this expectation is unreasonable. Trying to accommodate it will yield little more than window-dressing and blind activism. I'd prefer that schools abstain from trying.

2 Replies

@Thomas,

Quote:

I'd prefer that schools abstain from trying.

Well without sounding too glib, I hope, Thomas ... the point is they have no choice but to try. Because they are dealing with children, it's a safety issue & it would be unacceptable for the community, say nothing the authorities which employ teachers, if they didn't. There are also regulations which apply. It's called "duty of care" in Oz.

I agree, wholeheartedly though, that sometimes the actual responses to violence in shools are over-the-top (like boomerang's example of the suspension, leading to a police record) of a young child with a plastic gun. That situation & the response to it created more problems than it solved. However, that does not mean that (excluding that example & others like it) there isn't a very real problem with violence in schools that should rightly be addressed.

1 Reply

@boomerang,

Delightful story, boomerang.

Everyone in agreement.

0 Replies

@Thomas,

Quote:

Trying to accommodate it will yield little more than window-dressing and blind activism. I'd prefer that schools abstain from trying.

To try is to ruin education. Education is training the mind to determine the nature of things. We have gotten so far into using the schools to try to mold individual values and opinions into what is wanted that reality has gotten lost.

I fail to see how modern American schools are any improvement upon the old soviet schools, nor the medieval catholic schools. In only 40 years we have destroyed the university. Primary education has been a wasteland for longer.

0 Replies

@msolga,

msolga wrote:

Well without sounding too glib, I hope, Thomas ... the point is they have no choice but to try.

Fair enough. I wouldn't blame you teachers personally for trying to accommodate community expectations to follow the the authorities that run your system, and to obey the regulations they decreed. Even so, however, I can criticize the regulations, authorities, and community as unreasonable. And that's what I'm doing.

1 Reply

@Robert Gentel,

Philosophically, I don't see any reason why others can't have nuclear weapons.
The me first, you can't have it thing is childish, even if by nations. However, that sanguine mode of mine brings in more weapon foolery, which I don't like in the first place. I have issues on this.

But re schools, so far on the thread, I follow RG.

0 Replies

@Thomas,

Quote:

Even so, however, I can criticize the regulations, authorities, and community as unreasonable. And that's what I'm doing.

Of course you can criticize, Thomas.
But suggesting that schools "abstain from trying" is pretty unrealistic in my opinion. We are working with children, after all. We are not in an adults only environment. Of course we have to do what we can to ensure that schools are a safe environment. We would be irresponsible if we didn't. Though I do concede (again) that some of the regulations are over the top & create more problems than they solve.

0 Replies

Another major zero tolerance fail!

High School Suspends A Girl For Being The Designated Driver For A Drunk Friend Who Needed A Ride Home
North Andover High School suspended Erin Cox after it learned that she visited a party where alcohol was served in order to help drive her drunk friend home.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/ryanhatesthis/high-school-suspends-a-girl-for-being-the-designated-driver

1 Reply

@tsarstepan,

That's crazy!

How was any of this even a school issue?

Quote:

Geoffrey Bok, who represented the high school in court, explained that once the police became involved, the school had no choice but to act.

Why?

1 Reply

@boomerang,

I do know that many schools have a policy in place where if a student is at a party that alcohol is being served to minors whether they themselves are drinking or not, they can be kicked off a school sports team. I do support this but with common sense considered as well. The reason I support this is if an underage student is attending such a party even if they are not drinking, they are participating in an illegal party.

However in this case, the student was not attending the party simply helping out by giving some one a ride. She should be commended rather than punished. I guess what I pull from this as a parent of student being involved in school sports is - if this happens to let me know and I will go pick her up.

I don't agree with this handling as the student was trying to help by preventing drinking and driving.

I understand the reasoning with the schools being involved simply because it is so serious and there have been so many incidents, but come on - common sense should override this situation.

0 Replies

@boomerang,

boomerang wrote:

A third grader at Mo's school was suspended for bringing a "weapon" to school.

This is the weapon:

The incident is now part of the kid's permanent record saying he brought a "simulated firearm" to school.

(I know what you're thinking and no, it wasn't really Mo, although it very well could have been since he has a gazillion of these things.)

I remember a story from a few years back where a girl was suspended for "distributing drugs" by giving a friend a Midol.

Should there be zero tolerance rules?

Should it be decided on a case by case basis?

Where do you think the line should be drawn?

That is irrational.
A school that did that shud be sued.
The school board shud be held to account.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

David, the kid in question is probably married and working at McDonalds by now.

Well, about 12 actually....but you get my drift.

1 Reply

@Lordyaswas,

Lordyaswas wrote:

David, the kid in question is probably married and working at McDonalds by now.

Well, about 12 actually....but you get my drift.

1. The perpetrators shud not go un-punished; maybe we shud threaten their pensions.

2. This sort of thing keeps happening on younger victims.

David

1 Reply

@OmSigDAVID,

Absolutely David. Couldn't agree more. Boiling oil and all that.

I was simply pointing out that this outrage was reported over three years ago.

1 Reply

Public school zero tolerance policies.

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know